Restore A Flintlock Pistol

[TFoley]

Lining of touch-holes/vents on high-quality long arms and pistols is NOT a modern invention. It was, in fact commonplace among the many makers of quality arms in the late 18th century onwards until the end of the flintlock era.

This fine John Manton duelling pistol clearly has such an adaptation - visible over the top of the pan.

For those who can be bothered to look, there has been recent comment from Greenswlde on this same subject -

'A pretty little Ezikel Baker 22Bore Flint SXS that came back from India in the late 60's (engraved on the top rib--MAKER TO THE PRINCE REGENT) but may have ben finished for KG4 and was possibly gifted to the EIC or an Indian Aristocrat. Not going to tell you it's No. It has Gold Lined Vents but is minus the Locks(have a pair part finished to replace them but need more details (any Info Rudyard)). A few surviving members of the MLA may remember this gun. It was exchanged for a 16b Flint Manton that I rebuilt that went on to gain many MLA & MLAIC Medals in 70's and 80's.. Pity y'all din hav no gold till '49 or the Yukon.. Please excuse the Old country humour But many Flint guns have passed thru' my hands that were gold lined before 1800 even early1800 with PLATINA.. VERY OLD DOG.'

 

[kje54]

Lining of touch-holes/vents on high-quality long arms and pistols is NOT a modern invention. It was, in fact commonplace among the many makers of quality arms in the late 18th century onwards until the end of the flintlock era.

View attachment 48786

This fine John Manton duelling pistol clearly has such an adaptation - visible over the top of the pan.

For those who can be bothered to look, there has been recent comment from Greenswlde on this same subject -

'A pretty little Ezikel Baker 22Bore Flint SXS that came back from India in the late 60's (engraved on the top rib--MAKER TO THE PRINCE REGENT) but may have ben finished for KG4 and was possibly gifted to the EIC or an Indian Aristocrat. Not going to tell you it's No. It has Gold Lined Vents but is minus the Locks(have a pair part finished to replace them but need more details (any Info Rudyard)). A few surviving members of the MLA may remember this gun. It was exchanged for a 16b Flint Manton that I rebuilt that went on to gain many MLA & MLAIC Medals in 70's and 80's.. Pity y'all din hav no gold till '49 or the Yukon.. Please excuse the Old country humour But many Flint guns have passed thru' my hands that were gold lined before 1800 even early1800 with PLATINA.. VERY OLD DOG.'

Thank you, like I said "I could be wrong". However that liner looks to be stainless steel.

 

[cositrike]

Thank you, like I said "I could be wrong". However that liner looks to be stainless steel.

That’s because, being a top notch pistol, it would have a platinum liner

 

[kje54]

That’s because, being a top notch pistol, it would have a platinum liner

Okay. Based on what I've read platinum melting in the early 1800s was still being experimented with as it was difficult to work with. The secrets held by the ancient Egyptians of melting platinum had been long lost. It wasn't until 1895 that a safe torch was produced that allowed for the extensive use of platinum.
Not saying you're incorrect just relating what I know about platinum.

 

[TFoley]

Okay. Based on what I've read platinum melting in the early 1800s was still being experimented with as it was difficult to work with. The secrets held by the ancient Egyptians of melting platinum had been long lost. It wasn't until 1895 that a safe torch was produced that allowed for the extensive use of platinum. Not saying you're incorrect just relating what I know about platinum.

Please these excerpts from a longer dissertation about the use of platinum in firearms - technology.mathey.com/article/25/2/74-81

'For a period in the early nineteenth century, when malleable platinum was first available commercially, the high temperature and corrosion resistant properties of the metal were utilised for the manufacture of the touch-holes and pans of flintlock pistols, guns and rifles by English gunmakers, who also used it for some simple decorative purposes. Advances in firearms technology resulted in the effective disappearance of this application round about 1820, although by then platinum was used in various forms of percussion gun. This article considers some aspects of the flintlock use, including the claim made by Joseph Manton that he was the inventor of platinum touch-holes.'

More -

In 1815 John Manton took out a patent for “An Improvement in the Construction of Hammers and Pans to the Locks of all kind of Fowling Pieces and Fire-arms”. Part of this claim consisted of dividing the pan, along the centre line from the touch-hole, by a ridge “about one-sixteenth of an inch in height, and about the thirtieth of an inch thick” . On the John Manton double barrelled gun (Serial No. 7787) illustrated here platinum was used for this purpose. This gun forms part of the magnificent collection made by R. L. Scott, and bequeathed by him to the City of Glasgow (39–65wr)

It is not absolutely certain who was the first gunmaker to employ platinum but the presently available evidence suggests that it was one of the Manton brothers. During his examination of the Wollaston manuscripts, now held in the Cambridge University Library, the late L. F. Gilbert discovered that a considerable proportion of the platinum refined by William Hyde Wollaston was described as being of “touchhole” quality. He also identified the names of many of those with whom Wollaston conducted business and an examination of his accounts in the ledgers of his bankers, Messrs. Coutts, confirmed that some of the principal London gunmakers were among his customers. From manuscript entries Gilbert calculated that about 17,000 ounces of platinum had been of “touch-hole” quality. Although not all of this may have been sold to the gunmakers, between 1809 and 1822 no less than 700 ounces of gun-makers scrap were returned to Wollaston, so presumably that industry was using a substantial amount of the metal (7). Dr. M. C. Usselman, who has recently made a thorough examination of the Wollaston papers, suggests that “bars” or “ingots” sold during the years 1819 to 1821—when no ingots were specifically referred to as being of “touch-hole” quality—may also have been sold to gunmakers (8); if so a total of some 27,000 ounces of Wollaston’s platinum could have been used by this industry during the period 1805 to 1821. Clearly gun-making was then by far the largest single application for his malleable platinum.

In his paper Gilbert referred to an early chemistry textbook in which Samuel Parkes, the author, stated that he had been informed that Manton of Dover Street was the first to employ platinum for touch-holes.

In time, platinum was probably used by all the English gunmakers for the touch-holes of their best quality flintlocks. Of course, there was no standard configuration or dimensions for the platinum linings, which appear on the outside of the gun as a circle, possibly 5/16 of an inch in diameter, with the narrow touch-hole drilled through its centre. On occasions a thin disc of platinum would merely face the surface of the barrel around the touch-hole; rarely a thick plug of platinum would pass through the wall, but more frequently the touch-hole was only lined with a thin sleeve. Thus the weight of platinum employed varied considerably but would not exceed 1/8 ounce at the most, and would usually be much less. Although ingots were generally sold for this purpose Wollaston apparently also made reference to wires for touch-holes.'

 

[kje54]

Read carefully what was written by Greenswylde - he used the word 'platina'. This is NOT platinum. Quote from

'For a period in the early nineteenth century, when malleable platinum was first available commercially, the high temperature and corrosion resistant properties of the metal were utilised for the manufacture of the touch-holes and pans of flintlock pistols, guns and rifles by English gunmakers, who also used it for some simple decorative purposes. Advances in firearms technology resulted in the effective disappearance of this application round about 1820, although by then platinum was used in various forms of percussion gun. This article considers some aspects of the flintlock use, including the claim made by Joseph Manton that he was the inventor of platinum touch-holes.'

Thank you, learn something new everyday.

 

[TFoley]

Thank you, learn something new everyday.

Don't we all, Friend?

 

[Tumbler]

Please these excerpts from a longer dissertation about the use of platinum in firearms - technology.mathey.com/article/25/2/74-81

'For a period in the early nineteenth century, when malleable platinum was first available commercially, the high temperature and corrosion resistant properties of the metal were utilised for the manufacture of the touch-holes and pans of flintlock pistols, guns and rifles by English gunmakers, who also used it for some simple decorative purposes. Advances in firearms technology resulted in the effective disappearance of this application round about 1820, although by then platinum was used in various forms of percussion gun. This article considers some aspects of the flintlock use, including the claim made by Joseph Manton that he was the inventor of platinum touch-holes.'

More -

In 1815 John Manton took out a patent for “An Improvement in the Construction of Hammers and Pans to the Locks of all kind of Fowling Pieces and Fire-arms”. Part of this claim consisted of dividing the pan, along the centre line from the touch-hole, by a ridge “about one-sixteenth of an inch in height, and about the thirtieth of an inch thick” . On the John Manton double barrelled gun (Serial No. 7787) illustrated here platinum was used for this purpose. This gun forms part of the magnificent collection made by R. L. Scott, and bequeathed by him to the City of Glasgow (39–65wr)

It is not absolutely certain who was the first gunmaker to employ platinum but the presently available evidence suggests that it was one of the Manton brothers. During his examination of the Wollaston manuscripts, now held in the Cambridge University Library, the late L. F. Gilbert discovered that a considerable proportion of the platinum refined by William Hyde Wollaston was described as being of “touchhole” quality. He also identified the names of many of those with whom Wollaston conducted business and an examination of his accounts in the ledgers of his bankers, Messrs. Coutts, confirmed that some of the principal London gunmakers were among his customers. From manuscript entries Gilbert calculated that about 17,000 ounces of platinum had been of “touch-hole” quality. Although not all of this may have been sold to the gunmakers, between 1809 and 1822 no less than 700 ounces of gun-makers scrap were returned to Wollaston, so presumably that industry was using a substantial amount of the metal (7). Dr. M. C. Usselman, who has recently made a thorough examination of the Wollaston papers, suggests that “bars” or “ingots” sold during the years 1819 to 1821—when no ingots were specifically referred to as being of “touch-hole” quality—may also have been sold to gunmakers (8); if so a total of some 27,000 ounces of Wollaston’s platinum could have been used by this industry during the period 1805 to 1821. Clearly gun-making was then by far the largest single application for his malleable platinum.

In his paper Gilbert referred to an early chemistry textbook in which Samuel Parkes, the author, stated that he had been informed that Manton of Dover Street was the first to employ platinum for touch-holes.

In time, platinum was probably used by all the English gunmakers for the touch-holes of their best quality flintlocks. Of course, there was no standard configuration or dimensions for the platinum linings, which appear on the outside of the gun as a circle, possibly 5/16 of an inch in diameter, with the narrow touch-hole drilled through its centre. On occasions a thin disc of platinum would merely face the surface of the barrel around the touch-hole; rarely a thick plug of platinum would pass through the wall, but more frequently the touch-hole was only lined with a thin sleeve. Thus the weight of platinum employed varied considerably but would not exceed 1/8 ounce at the most, and would usually be much less. Although ingots were generally sold for this purpose Wollaston apparently also made reference to wires for touch-holes.'

Really informative. Thanks!

 

[toot]

why was PLATINIUM used in place of BRASS? military muskets used BRASS pans, to keep the base of the pan from braining out after repeated firing's. as was the case with IRON PANS??

 

[Grenadier1758]

Why was platinum used instead of brass? Read @TFoley's post in #105 above. Platinum has a higher melting temperature and greater corrosion resistance. Besides, it looked better on those top end guns.

 

[Flintandsteel]

Once again, we’ve gotten waaaaaaay away from the original topic. Let’s circle back shall we?

 

[Auldjin]

I have heard tales of fine pistols being broken up for the gold and platinum. Old guns have not always been collectors items.

 

[Tumbler]

I have heard tales of fine pistols being broken up for the gold and platinum. Old guns have not always been collectors items.

Never heard of that but not surprised. People were stealing copper spools when copper was hot.

 

[Tumbler]

Here are pictures of the John Manton dueling pistol before conservation.

 

[Tumbler]

This is the Joseph Manton dueling pistol I used as the example for my conservation.

 

[Tumbler]

This took a while to post. I will try to post the results of the preserved John Manton pistol today or tomorrow.

 

[Robby]

Thank you for showing the pictures Tumbler. Already learned something from them. Wood to metal fit is still like the day it was done, none better than the English at inletting.
Robby

 

[toot]

Why was platinum used instead of brass? Read @TFoley's post in #105 above. Platinum has a higher melting temperature and greater corrosion resistance. Besides, it looked better on those top end guns.

thank you sir. I missed it. a senior moment, you get a lot of EM after 76+++

 

[toot]

Here are pictures of the John Manton dueling pistol before conservation.View attachment 48933

one would wonder it this weapon ever has drawn blood??

 

[Rudall]

one would wonder it this weapon ever has drawn blood??

Not really.