Rice barrels

[M. De Land]

What are the shock load numbers on it? From what I read they should be up around 40 or so for good barrel steel.
12L14 has a rating of 5-7 at 70 degrees from the chart I have on hand.
The 4 in 4140 alloy denotes molybdenum alloying if I remember correctly.
The 1 denotes the second alloying agent which is carbon.
The 40 is .40 percent of carbon added for hardness rating.

 

[Hunter John]

Dean2 - I understand your logic in using 4140 steel if it's fact much stronger, just as easy to machine, and roughly the same price as the commonly used other steel.

I get your argument. Added pros with no cons. Makes sense.

Your indicate your preference towards the better steel. To your knowledge, what ML barrel manufacturers today use 4140 steel?

 

[galamb]

This is the most recent information I have as to who uses what:

Ed Rayl 8620
Green Mountain 1137
Colerain 12L14
Rice 12L14/4140
Oregon 12L14
Don/John Getz 12L14
Longhammock 12L14/1137
FCI ”“ Charlie Burton 12L14 (formerly owned by J. Goodien)
Jim McLemore 4150
Sleepy Hills 4150 (out of business)
Robert (Bobby) Hoyt 12L14

Rice is the only one that lists 4140 and Jason uses it for his match grade or false muzzle barrels that list at about 450 bucks a piece (starting price) - so if it's "just as economical" the only builder using it charges about double compared to his 12L14 barrels "for whatever reason".

Green Mountain uses 1137 and Long Hammock will use 1137 "if requested".

 

[Zonie]

Just looking around at steel prices, 4140 (chromoly)steel costs about 70 percent more than 12L14 steel.

The usual ratings for the ease of machining steel are known as the machinability index.
The larger the number, the easier the material is to machine.

4140 has a machinability index of 66
12L14 has a machinability index of 170

By comparison, aluminum has a machinability index of 360.
http://www.engineersedge.com/materials/machinability-steel-aluminum.htm

 

[Stophel]

I've always wondered why they don't just use plain 1018-1020 mild steel.

4140 is VERY tough... and very difficult to machine, which is why few use it, and those who have before, have given up using it. It has the strength and wear resistance to handle magnum handguns and ultra high velocity rifle cartridges. It is excellent for those purposes. And, it can make an excellent black powder gun barrel. But honestly, it's a huge amount of overkill for a muzzleloading rifle.

The simple fact of the matter is, despite shrieks of horror from those who swear it's a bomb just waiting to go off, 12L14 has been proven for DECADES to be more than sufficient for use as black powder rifle barrels. People are simply not blowing themselves up with them. It doesn't happen. It just doesn't. I honestly think some people are just WAITING for one to blow up, just for the satisfaction of saying "I told you so!". Well, you've been waiting for 40 years or more... I suspect you'll be waiting a long time yet. :wink:

Oh, and there are lots of people with lung disease... there aren't lots of people with blown up 12L14 gun barrels.

 

[Cowboy]

Don't forget Sharon barrels. They also used 12L14. Respectfully, cowboys1062.

 

[M. De Land]

Fair enough, I'll continue to buy and recommend what the steel manufactures say is correct barrel alloy.

 

[Zonie]

No doubt about it. 4140 is an excellent steel for a rifle barrel.
It is commonly used for the barrels that shoot the 30-06 suppository.

That brings me to mentioning that every single article produced by a steel company that mentions barrel steel types is talking about barrels that are made for shooting smokeless powder.

These people don't even recognize there are black powder muzzleloading firearms being manufactured today.

Of course, the number of these muzzleloading barrels being made is practically nothing when compared with modern guns and a material that is good enough for smokeless powder is more than good enough for a muzzleloader so why should they bother to point out there are other steels that will work very nicely with black powder?

Just something to think about.

 

[M. De Land]

The reason it is often used is because 12L14 is cheap and machines wonderfully , increases profitability and appears to be adequate to the relatively low BP pressures of under 20 K at moderate temperature.
My beef with the alloy is the safety margin in very cold conditions that I live and shoot in.
Any steel alloy looses shock loading strength as the temperature goes down.
It makes sense to me to stay with alloys that have the better shock load strength in the cold.
1134 has those better characteristics and is one of the reasons 1114-17 ( same alloy with less carbon) is used so widely in .22 RF barrels not requiring the greater hoop strengths of 4140-50 used in smokeless arms.
That being said, I have relined quite a few .22 RF barrels and the thin liners are usually made of 4140.

 

[Walks with fire]

Thanks for the post on what steels the various barrel makers use. I do hunt in well below freezing temps and I like to use a heavy charge so this information is useful to me.

I am curious about the 8620 steel used by only Ed Rayl. I have seen good reviews on his work. Is that stronger than GM's 1137?

 

[Walks with fire]

I see no need to explain here why certain charge levels are chosen. There are other threads to discuss those choices.

I asked about Rice barrels who in my opinion recommend charges levels below what some other manufacturers do.

The posts concerning barrel steel and the temperatures that such barrels are used in is good information and would like to keep it on track.

 

[necchi]

I think it's been answered here a few times.
The people of Rice Barrel Co are just using experience to recommend loads that are on the high end of needed charges for practical round ball accuracy and still high enough for good hunting velocity/energy.
The rest is also common sense issues concerning liability.

The simple fact is people out there don't pay attention at all when "magnumitus" is their goal. They will push the max and many times exceed recommended max loads because they just know they need that extra to get a good kill, we see it here all the time.
So your right, many recommended ML barrel max loads are around 120grns right(?), but that doesn't stop folks from going to 150 or even more, and do it all the time.
I'm guessing Rice knows this just like we do,, so if they recommend the max at 90-100,, sure enough folks will go to 120,, that might just be enough for the idiots to be satisfied they've got a super barrel and a super load.
Rice Barrel Co kills two birds with one stone,,
They allow the morons the satisfaction of overloading the barrels recommended charge, and still keep within the common industry max loads for their barrels.
I don't think it's any more complicated then just that.
You know that's the truth as well as I do, if they say 120,, folks will exceed that recommendation.

 

[Dean2]

Seeing you're not a bbl maker, why would your opinions matter? I think a lot of the "opinions" on whether 12L14 steel is safe w/ BP loads is a lot of blather seeing most BP bbls in use today are made of 12L14 steel and you even admitted that it's safe w/ Bp. There's no epidemic of bbl "blow ups" that are made of 12L14 steel and in fact I've asked for verified facts concerning the "blow up" of 12L14 bbls and none are forthcoming.... so, why is this even being discussed...simply foolishness....Fred

You see what I mean about getting flamed. Any opinion that disagrees with the common opinion on here is NOT welcome.

Fred

I usually have a lot of time for your opinion and posts but in this case you are wrong. I do not need to be a barrel maker to have a valid opinion. I am a barrel user and therefore have a right to buy whatever suits me best. You can use all the mild steel barrels you want, I didn't tell you not to, nor did I claim they are likely to blow up or any other such non-sense. There is also nothing wrong with discussing the available options, whether you think it is worthwhile or not. That is what forums are for. This is a lot more useful thean the "What load in a 50 Cal" that is so common on here.

What I did say is since there are 4140 steel ML barrels available for very little more I choose to use those. I have not seen a single person who will argue that 4140 isn't a FAR superior steel to 12L14/17 for rifle barrels. Others should be aware that this option is open to them too.

It may be overkill but so is the car I drive, since it is capable of 200 miles per hour and the roads are posted at 80. Comes down to what you like and what you will pay for it.

 

[Vaino]

Do what you will....Fred

 

[Flintfan69]

Out of curiosity, what makers are using 4140 to make swamped octagon barrels?

 

[galamb]

Out of curiosity, what makers are using 4140 to make swamped octagon barrels?

None that I am aware of.

While Rice will build with it, it is just his heavy straight barrels. You can call and ask but I suspect that a swamped 4140 would set you back a hefty chunk of change.

I used to know why Ed Rayl uses 8620, but it escapes me at the moment.

 

[Walks with fire]

Does anyone know what steel TC had used in it's barrels? Also curious about the current Lyman barrel steel. I have both and like both.

My loads are always 10% less than the maximum recommendation with the exception of my GM .50 which I load at the max recommendation of 100 grains of Goex 3f. If I use Swiss powder I reduce 10% again. I have no intention of exceeding the max. and often use far less. I am fully aware of the small gains achieved at max. levels.

 

[Donny]

Ya know, thinking about it, when barrels were proofed, actually it was the weld that was tested.
Not the metal.

 

[Zonie]

Donny
I think your mainly right in saying it was the weld that was being tested but wrought iron always has a large amount of impurities in it and these can weaken a barrel.

Proof testing the old barrels was to test both the welds and the material.

 

[M. De Land]

I know the reason 8620 is used in actions is because it will case color beautifully and is similar to 4140 in strength.
Uberti uses the Italian version of 8620 in their cartridge rifles I'm told.