Rifle Period Question

[BigSkyRambler]

Looking to add to my ML flinters. I prefer the early Rocky Mountain fur trade era, say before 1820. A couple of rifles I like the look of are the Pedersoli Mortimer and Yeager rifles. I know Yeagers were the inspiration for the American longrifle, but did they continue to be built into the early 19th century? When would the Mortimer flintlocks date to around? Thanks!

 

[Zonie]

Jaeger's were built well into the Percussion era which is only logical as they were German hunting rifles.

I have not heard of them being widely used by those in the fur trade but that is not to say that someone didn't have one.

I'm not familiar with the history of the Mortimer so I won't comment on it.

 

[BigSkyRambler]

Thanks Zonie. I figure that in the earlies every available kind of rifle and musket went west and it is well within reason that a fella could take his heavy Jaeger to the mountains since it was easily carried on horseback, intended to be slung and had plenty of oomph to deal with pesky grizzlies.

 

[A.Merrill]

Ky. rifle and Fowlers the guns that most people had at that time. AL

 

[MikeChapin]

Trade rifles by Henry or Derringer were around in great numbers during the fur trade era. They were rather plain flint rifles with either single or double set triggers. Barrels ran about 42" in .54 for the most part.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

"Before 1820" would be really early for the Rocky Mountain fur trade, I seem to recall Bridger's first trip west was 1822 and the first rendezvous was 1825. Certainly someone could have taken a Yeager to rendezvous, not probable but possible.
When I first read an author proclaiming the Hawken rifle as a great innovation I thought "but what about the Yeager?" It seems to me the Yeager would be a better choice than the Hawken which was needlessly long and heavy. The great majority of rifles at an original rendezvous were Pennsylvania longrifles but I've never felt obliged to follow the majority. :haha:

 

[hoochiepapa]

I you haven't been there, you should see the Museum of the Fur Trade on Chadron, NE. It is very interesting, most of the guns there are long smoothbores. I got to fondle a Jacob Dickert rifle. That was the highlight of the trip.
HAPPY VETERANS DAY!! atriot:

 

[poordevil]

http://jjhenryartificers.com/Site/Home.html

 

[sheba]

The Mortimer flintlock is a replica of an English fowler/rifle of around 1815 to 1820s

 

[Dphar]

I you haven't been there, you should see the Museum of the Fur Trade on Chadron, NE. It is very interesting, most of the guns there are long smoothbores. I got to fondle a Jacob Dickert rifle. That was the highlight of the trip.
HAPPY VETERANS DAY!! atriot:

The natives used trade guns in the west a great deal. But the western natives seemed to think that the firearms effectiveness was determined as much by magic as anything else. The Americans, be they white or Delaware or Iroquis or Shawnee seemed to *prefer* the rifle.
Trying to defend or feed oneself in the west with a trade gun is an exercise in futility for the most part. This is based on actual experience BTW.

If you read Russells "Journal of a Trapper" you will find the western natives armed with "fusees" really got the dirty end of the stick if they tried to shoot it out with rifle armed trappers. Usually about 8:1 casualty ratio if not worse.
The early Western Fur Trade rifle would be the typical Kentucky of about 50 caliber. *Probably* not under 45 or over 54. This we KNOW. Anything else would be "non-typical". This style rifle hung on, flintlocks, in the west until the beaver trade died out. Look at what the fur companies were ordering.
I suggest reading the appropriate chapters of "Firearms of the American West 1803 to 1865" Garavaglia and Worman.
If you can't find for sale (out of print) try inter-library loan.
There were English rifles etc. But many of the European rifles were twisted wrong for the west where high velocity and flat trajectory was important due to the ranges involved.

Dan

 

[BigSkyRambler]

"Before 1820" would be really early for the Rocky Mountain fur trade, I seem to recall Bridger's first trip west was 1822 and the first rendezvous was 1825. Certainly someone could have taken a Yeager to rendezvous, not probable but possible.
When I first read an author proclaiming the Hawken rifle as a great innovation I thought "but what about the Yeager?" It seems to me the Yeager would be a better choice than the Hawken which was needlessly long and heavy. The great majority of rifles at an original rendezvous were Pennsylvania longrifles but I've never felt obliged to follow the majority. :haha:

I have gotten interested in the period following Lewis and Clark up to the early 20s. I like using guns that not everyone else is carrying, which is why I like the Jaeger and Mortimer option.

 

[KHickam]

"Before 1820" would be really early for the Rocky Mountain fur trade, I seem to recall Bridger's first trip west was 1822 and the first rendezvous was 1825. Certainly someone could have taken a Yeager to rendezvous, not probable but possible.
When I first read an author proclaiming the Hawken rifle as a great innovation I thought "but what about the Yeager?" It seems to me the Yeager would be a better choice than the Hawken which was needlessly long and heavy. The great majority of rifles at an original rendezvous were Pennsylvania longrifles but I've never felt obliged to follow the majority. :haha:

Drouillard, Potts and Coulter, were definately trapsing around the Three Forks Area as early as 1807-10 - that is definately in the Rocky Mountains. I suspect they were armed with Lancaster or similiar style rifle around 50 cal.

 

[Dphar]

Drouillard, Potts and Coulter, were definately trapsing around the Three Forks Area as early as 1807-10 - that is definately in the Rocky Mountains. I suspect they were armed with Lancaster or similiar style rifle around 50 cal.

George Droulliard was killed near today's Three Forks, Montana in 1809.


from http://lewisandclarktrail.com/drouillard.htm

"...We saw from the marks on the ground that he must have fought in a circle on horseback, and probably killed some of his enemies, being a brave man, and well armed with a rifle, pistol, knife and tomahawk."

Dan

 

[Dphar]

"Before 1820" would be really early for the Rocky Mountain fur trade, I seem to recall Bridger's first trip west was 1822 and the first rendezvous was 1825. Certainly someone could have taken a Yeager to rendezvous, not probable but possible.
When I first read an author proclaiming the Hawken rifle as a great innovation I thought "but what about the Yeager?" It seems to me the Yeager would be a better choice than the Hawken which was needlessly long and heavy. The great majority of rifles at an original rendezvous were Pennsylvania longrifles but I've never felt obliged to follow the majority. :haha:

I have gotten interested in the period following Lewis and Clark up to the early 20s. I like using guns that not everyone else is carrying, which is why I like the Jaeger and Mortimer option.

Both would be "possible" but very unlikely for the typical trapper. Both would likely be larger bore than was economically desirable and I think I mentioned the rifling twist problem. Often 1 turn in the barrel length.
The good grade British guns tended to be expensive I should also add.
If you really want something different see the Tatham indian trade rifles in Dewitt Baily's "British Military Flintlock Rifles". But these never made it out of England.

They are similar to this, my 16 bore (one ounce ball) English style rifle. If fits into the 1800-1820 period nicely.

But it uses too much lead for a trapper to use in 1820 and a lot of powder as well to get 1600 fps.

If it were available and I were going west during the Western Fir Trade era I would want a long tang/long trigger bar Hawken in 54 caliber, probably in flintlock.Its far more durable and will kill just about as well on 1/2 the lead.

There was a valid reason for the Hawkens having re-enforced wrists.

Nor will it recoil like this.

Remember the British considered the 54 to be marginal for game the size of deer. The Americans used them and even smaller bore sizes on everything.
Ruxton used a 24 bore (58 cal) and Stewart 20 bore (62) for their trips into the west.
But they were better fixed financially than the trappers.

Dan

 

[BigSkyRambler]

Drouillard, Potts and Coulter, were definately trapsing around the Three Forks Area as early as 1807-10 - that is definately in the Rocky Mountains. I suspect they were armed with Lancaster or similiar style rifle around 50 cal.

Seems I read somewhere that Coulter purchased his expedition rifle when he left. Wouldn't that have been a Model 1792?

 

[KHickam]

And Potts was killed earlier than Drouillard and Coulter (Colter sp?) lived beyond Drouillard - the basic premise of the post was true - they were in around the Rocky Mountains within a year or two of returning with the Corps of Discovery.

Leading expeditions into the area of the Upper Missouri and the Rocky Mountains.

Big Sky Rambler - I can vaguely remember something to the effect that Coulter (Colter) did purchase his rifle from the expedition, but can't give a citation on it.

Even so that just reinforces my premise - that a Lancaster style rifle around 50 cal would have been present/perhaps common in the early fur trade along the Upper Missouri in the time frame the poster was asking about.

1792/94 expedition rifles were made by Deringer, Dickert, Gumpf and a few others - were brass mounted lancaster style rifles in 49 cal if I recall correctly

My own rifle (which I am developing a character in Upper Missouri ca 1810-13) is a brass mounted, plain maple stocked, with sliding wood patchbox with a swamped 50 cal barrel (actually a 49 cal) and I feel very comfortable that this would be a possible rifle to be carried by a trapper in that region, place and time. Except it is left handed.

 

[BigSkyRambler]

KHickam:
Would the 1792 rifles that Track of the Wolf sells be of the "correct" style? Seems to be a long and beefy rifle.

 

[sheba]

Here s one of mine that fits your bill, an 1814 US Common rifle 54cal 33 barrel(mine is still in the white and needs to be finished.Made from RIFLESHOPPE parts.You could also go with an 1817common rifle as well.These guns were made by Derringer(mine is marked so on the lock plate)and other contracters.As far as being carried by trapper, rifle could of been taken by someone who decided army life wasn t for him and hightailed it for the mountains.The gun is very sturdy with a thick barrel that balances real nice.

 

[hawk]

Dan nice photos :thumbsup:

 

[roger sells]

I agree with some of the other guys in that the Jeager rifles were being built up into the percussion era. I went by Tip Curtis's shop (615-654-4445) a couple weeks ago and he was making three rifles that he called his American Jeager rifle. He used the swamped 31 inch barrel and the butt portion of the rifle was shaped like the Bivins bicentenial rifles. All three were .62 cal rifles and had a great feel when put to your shoulder. The stocks were preshaped, inlet for the lock and trigger, and the sliding wood patchbox and the dovetail in the butt stock were machined. It is a great combination for someone who is looking for a big bore flint hunting rifle. He had some pretty figured walnut when I was there.
Roger Sells