Rifling for CW Minie Ball.

[M Kuhn]

Another thread about flintlocks and bears got me to thinking (not good since I don't have any current projects) What would the ideal rifling specifications be for a 1" octagon barrel that was specifically intended to shoot a 550 grain Civil War hollow based Minie ball?
I know almost all the CW guns I see are a 1-72 twist but I seem to recall that CW rifles had shallower rifling that didn't lead up as bad as the deep rifling on RB guns.
If I were to have a barrel made up for a custom flinter designed to shoot the CW hollow based Minie specifically what depth of rifling would be ideal and who can make such a barrel? 1-72 seems pretty standard but rifling depth is the main thing I would be concerned with.
I am thinking a Lancaster flintlock with a one inch octagon barrel designed to shoot Minies would be a great hunting gun for the bear woods. Maybe not traditional but a fun project and one I would really use a lot since I am more of a hunter than a reenactor.

 

[LRB]

I would suggest going with the original specs for Springfield or Enfield.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Another thread about flintlocks and bears got me to thinking (not good since I don't have any current projects) What would the ideal rifling specifications be for a 1" octagon barrel that was specifically intended to shoot a 550 grain Civil War hollow based Minie ball?
I know almost all the CW guns I see are a 1-72 twist but I seem to recall that CW rifles had shallower rifling that didn't lead up as bad as the deep rifling on RB guns.
If I were to have a barrel made up for a custom flinter designed to shoot the CW hollow based Minie specifically what depth of rifling would be ideal and who can make such a barrel? 1-72 seems pretty standard but rifling depth is the main thing I would be concerned with.
I am thinking a Lancaster flintlock with a one inch octagon barrel designed to shoot Minies would be a great hunting gun for the bear woods. Maybe not traditional but a fun project and one I would really use a lot since I am more of a hunter than a reenactor.

It was found during the 1850's when the US Ordnance Dept. was testing barrels for use in the new rifle-muskets being designed, that three wide grooves of .015" at the breech tapering to .005" at the muzzle worked the best. This was adopted as the standard rifling adopted in the M1855 through the M1863 rifle-muskets. The lands and grooves were equal in width and the rate of twist was the same (1/72) throughout the length of the barrel.

Some test barrels were rifled with 5 grooves and worked nearly as well. I have a 6 groove match barrel on a Richmond RM with a 1 in 48" twist that shoots well, but it works better with a light load. The above mentioned rifling was used with a 60 gr. charge of musket powder which is enough to bring down anything in North America, but it is slow, averaging 960 fps with the powder of the 1850's. I've never chronographed this load, but it's probably not much different with modern BP. You could bump the load up about 10 to 15 grains, but accuracy could suffer. A lighter load is generally more accurate, but knock down power is reduced and time of flight increased. At ranges of over 100 yds., a deer can move enough that a well aimed shot will miss vital organs even with a service charge. I've seen this happen.

Another thing is to match the bullet size to the land diameter. For best accuracy, allow no more than .001" windage. Civil War period bullets were cast with .005" windage to allow for fouling in battlefield conditions.

One barrel maker you could talk to is Bob Hoyt who makes both octagon barrels and musket barrels. He would be equipped to make such a barrel.

 

[J.D.]

I am thinking a Lancaster flintlock with a one inch octagon barrel designed to shoot Minies would be a great hunting gun for the bear woods. Maybe not traditional but a fun project and one I would really use a lot since I am more of a hunter than a reenactor.

Just for your information, using concals, of any kind, for hunting poses a few problems.

Conicals have a reputation of changing direction after impact, and often do not penetrate to the vitals.

There are those, on this forum, who are much more knowledgeable on this subject, so maybe one of them will chime in. IMHO,a 58 cal round ball will do everything necessary to cleanly kill a black bear.

IMHO, efficiency of the projectile has little to do with being PC or reenacting. It does have to do with accuracy and penetration.

God bless

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have used 45 caliber mini's on Ohio Whitetails for the last twenty years and have never had any problems with them not penetrating, or being deflected noticable after entering. They do definately mushroom out and create a "shock ". When I hit a deer with one they go down, often being rolled onto their backs with the legs up kicking. I attribute this to their mussle reaction not to the impact itself. I would assume the mushroomed mini creates more pain than a round ball.

 

[Tumblernotch]

One deer I hit with a Minie at over 100 yds spun like a top when hit.

One thing about the Minie is the bone shattering effect when they hit bone. This was the main reason for so many amputations during the War. Of course this also adds to the amount of damaged meat you may have when hunting, but a deer hit in the shoulder ain't going nowhere.

 

[dthompson1334]

Years ago I used to shoot with the NSS-A; a repro 3 band enfield in .577 caliber. I always thought the 1 in 72 twist was too slow for the miniball and a faster twist would be better. I think it was in the "Fact Book" by the NRA that gave a formula for rifling twist. I figured out that the correct twist for the mini was something like 1 in 56".

I used to shoot the mini style bullet at 100 yards and a shorter wad cutter at 50. the mini just didn't group as well at 50 as it did at 100. I used 52 grains of ff, but if I was going after big game, i'd take it up to 65 or so.

 

[M Kuhn]

There are those, on this forum, who are much more knowledgeable on this subject, so maybe one of them will chime in. IMHO,a 58 cal round ball will do everything necessary to cleanly kill a black bear.
God bless

Black bears I see killed regularly with a 50 cal and are not my concern, The gun will probably never actually be used for bear hunting as I don't hunt bears.
I just see them a lot.
I run into grizzlies where I hunt and while I have no desire to shoot one would like a gun capable of punching a serious hole in one should he decide he wants me for lunch. After reading up on minies the powder charges I am considering (80-90 grains of 3F) may cause the skirt to separate from a hollow based minie. It would be primarily an Elk gun.
After reading about the skirt separation problems with minies I may be better off looking at a more modern conical(Gasp!).
I have 54's and 50's and my .74 trade gun which shoots 550 grain round balls but this would be built as much for my amusement as anything and used for elk but would also be last ditch grizzly medicine should I need it.
Not worried about black bears really, They give up pretty easy and most guys I know hunting black bears use 30-30s, 44 magnums or 50 round ball so I have black bears covered with my 50 or 54.

 

[LRB]

"I used to shoot the mini style bullet at 100 yards and a shorter wad cutter at 50. the mini just didn't group as well at 50 as it did at 100. I used 52 grains of ff, but if I was going after big game, i'd take it up to 65 or so."

No gun groups better at 100 yrds than at 50yrds. It just don't work that way.

 

[varsity07840]

I think that skirt problems with heavier charges can often be attributed to problems with sizing or in the casting process itself. I can shoot a semi wadcutter minie out of my 1/90 twist .69 cal. plains rifle over 120 gr. of 2F with very good accuracy. I'm willing to bet that a longer "standard" style minie would be too long to stabilize in the slow twist with the same charge. Hence, the 60-65 gr issue
charge for the 1/72 twist muskets. Longer bullets like a faster twist with more than moderate charges. Having said that, while no bear expert by any means, I think I'd rather have a big bore rifle, loaded with a roundball, perhaps a bit harder than pure lead in case I run into one. Two barrels would be nice too.

DUANE

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have found that a slight difference in the alloy of the lead has more to do with skirt seperation than reasonable variations in powder charges. I had some lead stock that was intended for use in lead flash plating of bearings that was 95% plus lead , 5% less antimony certified. And it gave me serious skirt seperation problems, Lead flashing did not.

 

[poordevil]

I have shot deer, rabbit, mudhen, Rattlesnake and buffalo, just to name some, with 55gr to 70gr of 3FFFg and minnie ball and never had a problem with the bullet not getting where it needed to get. Back in my younger days, I would sometimes shoot 120gr 3FFFg and same minnie ball.....I called it my Elephant load.......never in 30+ years have I seen, heard of or had a skirt seperate. Only have heard it said here. I think it is one of those wives tails that get repeated. My minie balls weigh 560 something grs. No way a round ball will out penetrate that.

P

 

[paulvallandigham]

Since minie balls go as light as 315 grains, the other possibility it that you do not have the same experiences with ALL weights of minie balls that other shooters here do, NO?? :hmm:

. I suspect the thin skirts appear in the lighter weight bullets. :surrender:

 

[Zonie]

What started as a question suitable for the Gun Builders Forum has turned into a discussion of bullets, casting and shooting.

I would suggest that if there are questions about these issues they would be more suitable for the other forums which deal with those questions/suggestions and should be discussed there.