Round ball spin.

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

Your post I referenced indicated round balls flatten into tic-tac shapes regardless of the gun, unless you're aware of some kind of flintlock revolver.

I have recovered PRBs from the berm. They do not deform.

My friend, I appreciate your input and experience as is as valid as mine but I never used the word flatten. They become oblong as looking as very short tic tacs. Also, I referenced revolvers as I stated the that pistols with chamberS. Flintlock pistols do not have chamberS. In any any case all projectiles upon exposed to tremendous amounts of force will loose there original shape, period. Whether you can see it with the naked or not is a different story.
As PRBs been recovered from a berm without deformation, I wish that was the case, we will re shoot them instead of recasting them. May be we are understanding deformation in different terms, the first deformation of a PRB happens when you push it down the barrel and the patch indents its pattern into it. At that point the ball does not have it original shape thus been deformed. I have attached a picture that shows how much rifling they grab, op to .125 of an inch.

I don’t want to go hi jack the thread but the same picture show balls that retained the home made Duro Felt wad all the way to impact and they were keyholing. I am not sure what produce the phenomena of attaching as I haven’t been able to replicate it. Some of those balls hit up to 8” away from the group. The Duro Felt was their BP material they sell cut with 15/32 punch (.468”) and wet lube with my home made lube which consist of food grade 1 pound of beeswax, 2 pounds of lamb tallow and 16 oz of Goya olive oil. The balls were pure lead. The gun a ROA with 30 grains of 3F GOEX at 25 meters (27 yds). Sorry for the long rant.

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

My friend, I appreciate your input and experience as is as valid as mine but I never used the word flatten. They become oblong as looking as very short tic tacs. Also, I referenced revolvers as I stated the that pistols with chamberS. Flintlock pistols do not have chamberS. In any any case all projectiles upon exposed to tremendous amounts of force will loose there original shape, period. Whether you can see it with the naked or not is a different story.
As PRBs been recovered from a berm without deformation, I wish that was the case, we will re shoot them instead of recasting them. May be we are understanding deformation in different terms, the first deformation of a PRB happens when you push it down the barrel and the patch indents its pattern into it. At that point the ball does not have it original shape thus been deformed. I have attached a picture that shows how much rifling they grab, op to .125 of an inch.

I don’t want to go hi jack the thread but the same picture show balls that retained the home made Duro Felt wad all the way to impact and they were keyholing. I am not sure what produce the phenomena of attaching as I haven’t been able to replicate it. Some of those balls hit up to 8” away from the group. The Duro Felt was their BP material they sell cut with 15/32 punch (.468”) and wet lube with my home made lube which consist of food grade 1 pound of beeswax, 2 pounds of lamb tallow and 16 oz of Goya olive oil. The balls were pure lead. The gun a ROA with 30 grains of 3F GOEX at 25 meters (27 yds). Sorry for the long rant.

 

[necchi]

I haven't seen a single round ball make a perfect round hole yet on any of my targets.

, try using thicker paper,,
(or buy a rifle)
Honest, paper rips, but the lead will stain the paper,, close the rips as best you can on a flat surface,, and you'll see where the ball hit.
(it's how judges score for cutting lines)
(and why official targets aren't made from 20# printer paper)

 

[tenngun]

Your post I referenced indicated round balls flatten into tic-tac shapes regardless of the gun, unless you're aware of some kind of flintlock revolver.

I have recovered PRBs from the berm. They do not deform.

Collier revolvers, I don’t think in repro is made of them. Early ones were flint changing to precusion. Very similar to colts in function

 

[SwampBilly]

As has been previously stated.... Round ball does indeed assume a short tic tac shape after being fired from a cap and ball.

And they do also fly true like a conical because I have recovered spent bullets from a soft medium and the sprue side that I loaded up was still pointing forwards into the target.

I did once take a round ball and drill a hole halfway through and cut an x on it with a Jeweler's hacksaw in an attempt to make a hollow point talon load if you will...

I intended to fire it into a phone book to see if it actually work but I never got around to it.

I don't see why it wouldn't work at least from fairly shorter ranges

 

[Tumbledown]

My friend,

We've never met. No need to be condescending.

 

[stikshooter]

I haven't seen a single round ball make a perfect round hole yet on any of my targets.

Practice more !

 

[windini]

If you do any serious study of ballistics, you'll find that while rotational velocity does indeed slow, it does so at an exponentially lower rate than forward velocity. A ball that has lost almost all of its forward momentum is still spinning at a fairly high rate.

I recall a video of some (not too bright) guys firing an unmentionable onto ice on a frozen lake. They then video'd the bullet spinning on its nose on the ice, like a top.

 

[wiscoaster]

, try using thicker paper,,
(or buy a rifle)

I hear ya.

(my post quoted was mostly a lame attempt at humor)

 

[Whughett]

Practice more !

I shoot those style firearms not mentioned here also. A wad cutter will “cut” a neat round hole as it passes thru a paper target, carrying away the “wad” of paper. A semi-wad cutter like wise. I’ve never seen a conical or round ball leave a round hole in a target. Sure, flatten the hole amd it will often show a round lead print but the hole is a ragged tear.
I practice twice a week.

 

[flconch53]

As far as altering the shape of the ball when loading it tight, that is why I have cutters in all different sizes to put a radius in the end of the jags I make for my loading rods.

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

We've never met. No need to be condescending.

My apologies, never meant to be condescending. I am sorry I hurt your feeling!

 

[bronko220002]

You are mostly correct sir. Lots of people continue to believe that the ball continues to be a sphere after firing when in fact is more like a tic tac. Folk worry about deformation while loading because you want the projectile as perfect as possible of course, but once the flint scrapes or the cap goes off is a whole different story. In some pistols with tight rifling in relation to chamber diameters the bearing surface of a round ball is up to an 1/8 of an inch and the ball ends up pretty elongated. I am not stating this because it sounds right, I have done lots of projectile recovery in soft medium to analyze them. I will not spend a minute of my life putting a hollow cavity in a RB but if I decided to do it I will test it out as scientifically as possible instead of speculating about it. I would do that while enjoying a cup of coffee of course!!!

I'm of the "trust but verify" mold. I could see out of a revolver where the sides of the ball are shaved off to seal the chamber but I do not believe a patched round ball is elongated like a tic tac. That seems contrary to the laws of physics. The ball is compressed against the walls of the bore/patch when fired and being pushed by pressure on the bottom equally across its surface. It cannot posdibly elongate.

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

I shoot those style firearms not mentioned here also. A wad cutter will “cut” a neat round hole as it passes thru a paper target, carrying away the “wad” of paper. A semi-wad cutter like wise. I’ve never seen a conical or round ball leave a round hole in a target. Sure, flatten the hole amd it will often show a round lead print but the hole is a ragged tear.
I practice twice a week.

The wad cutter bullets was designed to cut precise holes in targets made out of wad not paper, hence their name. Wad targets were made of compressed fibers that easily broke off when struck by a wad cutter making seemingly perfect holes and making easy for scoring. WC will tear paper as easy as round balls if the paper is not glued to a cardboard backer or a wad target is used.

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

I'm of the "trust but verify" mold. I could see out of a revolver where the sides of the ball are shaved off to seal the chamber but I do not believe a patched round ball is elongated like a tic tac. That seems contrary to the laws of physics. The ball is compressed against the walls of the bore/patch when fired and being pushed by pressure on the bottom equally across its surface. It cannot posdibly elongate.

Two different things, elongating and deforming. Revolvers and long guns. In a rifle the ball is subcaliber to the rifling thus deforming when loaded and fired. In a revolver is opposite, over caliber ball going thru a smaller in diameter tube. The mass of the oversized ball has to go somewhere when squeezed thru the bore and it’s not sideways thus becoming oblong, short tic tac shaped.

 

[bronko220002]

No...I strongly disagree. The patch acts as a cushion and seal between the ball and the bore. The patch engages the rifling being pushed into it by the ball's diameter. If you were to load a ball with a large enough diameter to force it against the walls of the bore with enough pressure to elongate it you would need a hammer to pound it down the bore and the face of the ball would be deformed dramatically.
You prove me wrong by showing me an elongated ball which was shot from a rifle where a patch was used and then I'll believe you.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Sorry, I beg to differ, even being an ignorant BP noob, because when I load a ball into a revolver's chamber it shaves a ring of lead off the ball. Maybe it's not exactly "squished" as I said, it's still definitely deformed by the act of loading. I can't speak to rifles from lack of actual experience, but given the force required to ram a patched ball down the bore of my Kentucky pistol, I can't hardly believe it remains a perfect sphere either.

Further, the ball engages the rifling during its passage through the barrel and that deforms it. Any little irregularity on a sphere's surface is going to disrupt the airflow around it. The ball's spin counteracts the disruptive force of the disturbed airflow, of course, but the spin rotational speed diminishes with time in the air.

Ah but in your case, the ball is first swaged into the chamber, then when fired, it is swaged onto the rifling in the barrel. I took the OP's question, although the OP didn't specify, that it was referring to patched, round ball. Now IF you're tapping the ball down the barrel with a mallet, OK that might mar it, AND note that in my example, the top of the bullet was already irregular due to the sprue. Now the face of the round ball, that portion that is travelling along the axis of the barrel toward the muzzle and that which is pressed upon when loading, might be marred, but the idea that the ball's circumference area where the ball meets the sides of the barrel, and the rounded base are deformed in loading and firing, is what the quote and evidence shows does not happen.

LD

 

[64Springer]

In my opinion a round ball causes a turbulence when the charge is applied to the bottom of the ball.

The gasses are forced sideways.

This is why I believe round balls do not obturate.


And it's why I believe flat bottom bullets obturate to some degree.

That blast of energy is hitting the bottom the bullet square on.


P.S. Once I find my watercolors, Hunter be in trouble.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

In my opinion a round ball causes a turbulence when the charge is applied to the bottom of the ball.

The gasses are forced sideways.

This is why I believe round balls do not obturate.


And it's why I believe flat bottom bullets obturate to some degree.

That blast of energy is hitting the bottom the bullet square on.

Correct.

LD

 

[wiscoaster]

.... the top of the bullet was already irregular due to the sprue. ...

So, it's already an imperfect sphere? And already subject to turbulent and unbalanced airflow due to its irregular shape? Which affects its spin? And its trajectory? Regardless of whether it was deformed by the acts of loading and/or shooting? Hmmmmmmmm.......