Round ball verses conical

[Okie Hog]

SHOT PLACEMENT KILLS.

Exactly!!!

Since 1999 the vast majority of my deer and hogs were killed with modern muzzleloaders.

In 2012 i went retrograde. Since then i've killed about 20 deer and 30-40 wild hogs using .50 and .54 caliber patched round balls in my New Englander rifles. No animal got away wounded and some bang flopped.

Within its range limitations a .50 or .54 round ball kills as well as anything else except maybe a LAW

 

[coloradoclyde]

Not new to muzzle loading rifles, however, just relatively inexperienced.

Yes! I agree with that statement.

I'm here to learn and there is a lot for me to learn.

I feel you need to be reminded that you said that.

 

[coloradoclyde]

The bottom line is, that you obviously didn't understand my original comment. And still don't as far as I can tell...... Probably shouldn't have commented on it. :surrender: :v

 

[nkbj]

It's an interesting study as to how the needed twist changes with diameter. Shooting paper patched .45 caliber semi-wadcutters in my New Englander has my thinking turning towards a .42 rifle to use all the various .41 caliber off the shelf molds that I use in the 1858 Remington. Perhaps I could figure out how to use the same ammo in the revolver and a rifle but paper patch (rather than lubed lead) seems to work best in rifles. I'd go with the slowest twist I thought I'd get by with for the revolver bullets and be able to shoot patched round ball as well. There's not much point in "either or" when both will work great.

 

[BrownBear]

There's not much point in "either or" when both will work great.

And how!

I've never shot game with conicals, but I do stuff a fair number down the bore just for fun.

Wanna have some fun with your muzzleloader, head out where you can shoot long range and longer, then shoot both RBs and conicals. Way out there the conicals sure seem lots more accurate, even if the trajectory of both is real loopy. Biggest advantage of conicals though, is they stir up a whole lot more dust when they hit, and it's easier to make elevation and windage adjustments for your next shot.

Using the "Elmer Keith" method of long-range sighting (raising the front sight above the plane of the rear sight) lets you see the target clearly and take a "normal" sight picture without obscuring the target. If you put a little scratch on the back side of the blade when elevation is just right, it's amazing how repeatable you can hit the same POI way out there.

Of course, when you get out beyond 500-600 yards the whole front sight is above the rear sight and you aren't so inclined to put little scratches on your barrel for reference points. That's when I switch to typewriter white-out.

Practical? Heck no. Fun? Just try it! :grin:

We bought these danged guns for having fun, so why not go out and have some long range fun. If your mind runs toward mortars, you're a natural! :rotf:

 

[Gene L]

Not new to muzzle loading rifles, however, just relatively inexperienced.

Yes! I agree with that statement.

I'm here to learn and there is a lot for me to learn.

I feel you need to be reminded that you said that.

I'm here to learn, not to accept just anything that's said.
Clyde, I hope you're not one of those guys who thinks their opinion is sacred.

I may not understand your original argument, if so, I apologize. What I think I understand is that in your opinion twist changes with more velocity. My stance is that's not so.

It will only take a sentence or two to clear this up.

I once knew someone who thought a bullet actually got faster ten yards down range. Or that a bullet rises when shot from a level barrel.

At least you don't dress up like a Mountain Man.

 

[Billnpatti]

Love that site!!! Thanks for posting. :hatsoff:

 

[Billnpatti]

Au contraire mon frère. Velocity has a great deal to do with RPMs. Remember the "M" in RPM stands for minutes. Velocity is measured in units of distance per unit of time, such as feet per second. In both instances, time is a common factor. Ergo, the greater the velocity, the greater the RPMs will be. In other words, the faster the bullet is traveling for any given twist rate, the greater the RPMs. This relationship between velocity and RPMs is basic to the science of exterior ballistics.

In reading over what I have posted, I realize it may come off as being argumentative. I don't mean it in that way. My intention is to simply elucidate the relationship between velocity and RPMs. I apologize if I sound argumentative.

Let me give you an example. Take a look at this device made by Stanley Tools http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-NORTH-...826790?hash=item3d0ad66126:g:-v0AAOSwnipWYS0U

You can see that the shaft has spirals cut in it. You spin the bit by pushing down on the handle. the faster you push down on the handle (velocity) the faster you will spin the bit (RPMs). The spiral cuts are analogous to the rifling in the barrel of a rifle. They do not change but when the velocity of the handle changes, the RPMs of the bit change. Do you see the analogy?

 

[coloradoclyde]

I'm here to learn, not to accept just anything that's said.

Personal Bias will impede your learning. Learning is achieved by asking questions, not making contradictory statements.

Clyde, I hope you're not one of those guys who thinks their opinion is sacred.

Your perception of my opinion is your opinion. Your opinion will lead to bias, and bias will prevent you from seeing the problem or question clearly.

I may not understand your original argument, if so, I apologize.

Accepted!.

What I think I understand is that in your opinion twist changes with more velocity. My stance is that's not so.

"I was trying to verbally illustrate the connection between bullet rotation, velocity and bullet stability. and how longer bullets require more stability when compared to a round ball."

It will only take a sentence or two to clear this up.

I won't take that bet.

I once knew someone who thought a bullet actually got faster ten yards down range. Or that a bullet rises when shot from a level barrel.

Someone once said: "associate with the people you most want to be like" (author unknown)

Sounds like good advice. :grin:

At least you don't dress up like a Mountain Man

:shocked2: :hmm: Not sure what that is suppose to mean......It sounds derogatory, either to me or to Mountain men.
Perhaps you could clarify?

 

[Gene L]

I agree with the longer bullet length (and hence weight) require a faster twist to stabilize. That's pretty much boiler plate. And since a round ball is the lightest weight bullet per caliber, it doesn't require a fast twist.

People talk about "over stabilizing" a bullet by spinning it too fast. It isn't over stabilized, it becomes unstable. But that's only important if you put a ball down a fast twist barrel.

Not kicking Mountain Men. I want to keep what little hair I have left.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I couldn't get that link to work Bill, but I see nothing in your statement to argue with.
Thank you for explaining so eloquently. :hatsoff:

Hopefully, you will succeed where I failed. :grin:

 

[Billnpatti]

"I'm here to learn, not to accept just anything that's said.
Clyde, I hope you're not one of those guys who thinks their opinion is sacred."

"At least you don't dress up like a Mountain Man."


Ouch!! I don't think I would have said either of these things. :shake: I hope they were meant "tongue in cheek". If not, they border on being rather rude. Since you don't actually know Clyde, you don't know if he does or does not dress up as a Mountain Man. Many of our members on this forum do, as a matter of fact, dress up as Mountain Men. My advice to you is tread lightly and not step on those toes. :nono: This is a forum of friends who share advice and, quite often, opinions. Just take it for what it is worth to you. Just a friend giving you advice. :hatsoff:

 

[Billnpatti]

Just Google "Yankee Style Push Drills". They were made by Stanley tools a good while back. I think Sears has come out with a similar device.

 

[coloradoclyde]

That's pretty much boiler plate. And since a round ball is the lightest weight bullet per caliber, it doesn't require a fast twist.

People talk about "over stabilizing" a bullet by spinning it too fast. It isn't over stabilized, it becomes unstable. But that's only important if you put a ball down a fast twist barrel.

Please explain the highlighted text.?

 

[Billnpatti]

Gene, while it is true that the longer a bullet is for a given caliber, the greater its weight will be. However, for the stability, the factor is not the change in weight but, rather, it is the change in the aspect ratio. That is the ratio of bullet length to diameter. Longer bullets require a faster spin rate to achieve stability. The aspect ratio of a ball is 1.0. That means that the length and diameter are the same. Of course, with a sphere that is obvious.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Push drills......yes I can visualize that without seeing it. It clearely illustrates :thumbsup:

 

[Gene L]

The point I was making is something is either stable or unstable. No such thing as "over stabilized." This term is seen frequently, though.

There is no lighter bore caliber effective projectile than a round ball. I don't know how to illustrate that more clearly; I'd think it was clear on its face. If you start stretching out a ball into a bullet, it's going to weigh more.

 

[Gene L]

Au contraire mon frère. Velocity has a great deal to do with RPMs. Remember the "M" in RPM stands for minutes. Velocity is measured in units of distance per unit of time, such as feet per second. In both instances, time is a common factor. Ergo, the greater the velocity, the greater the RPMs will be. In other words, the faster the bullet is traveling for any given twist rate, the greater the RPMs. This relationship between velocity and RPMs is basic to the science of exterior ballistics.

In reading over what I have posted, I realize it may come off as being argumentative. I don't mean it in that way. My intention is to simply elucidate the relationship between velocity and RPMs. I apologize if I sound argumentative.

Let me give you an example. Take a look at this device made by Stanley Tools http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-NORTH-...826790?hash=item3d0ad66126:g:-v0AAOSwnipWYS0U

You can see that the shaft has spirals cut in it. You spin the bit by pushing down on the handle. the faster you push down on the handle (velocity) the faster you will spin the bit (RPMs). The spiral cuts are analogous to the rifling in the barrel of a rifle. They do not change but when the velocity of the handle changes, the RPMs of the bit change. Do you see the analogy?

No, can't see that analogy at all. Spin of a bullet is fixed by the twist of the barrel. Otherwise, there would be little reason to post a twist. 1:12 is only 1:12 at a certain velocity? What is that velocity?

A 12 twist will rotate the bullet once every foot of travel regardless of the velocity. It will travel downrange faster or slower, but the rotation will be the same.

Bullets are in no way like a push drill.

 

[Artificer]

I think some of the confusion may have come due to mixing up internal vs external ballistics. I fully admit I got lost a couple of times in the discussion on the last two pages, myself. :rotf:

With Internal Ballistics, the amount of ball/bullet spin inside the barrel does not change with an increase in powder that also increases velocity, until and unless the powder charge is high enough to strip/blow out the patch or blow out the "skirt" on a minie ball. IOW, as long as the powder charge allows the patch of a PRB or the Skirt of a Minie Ball to hold the rifling, the rate of twist is what controls how much the ball or bullet spins INSIDE the bore. So, it is true that a barrel with a twist of 1in48" and a length of 48" (from the point the PRB where is loaded in the bore) is only going to turn the ball completely around one time in the barrel, even when the powder charge/velocity is increased.

However, what the increased powder charge does is dramatically increase both the speed and rotation of the ball AFTER it leaves the barrel muzzle, or what is known as External Ballistics. IOW, the higher powder charge adds more force to ball for both distance and in rotation. After the ball leaves the barrel and the barrel rate of twist no longer controls how much the ball can turn in the air, it will rotate faster with the added force of the larger powder charge than it did with less force of a lesser force/powder charge.

I really liked Bill's analogy of a Stanley Push "Speed" Drill. :thumbsup:

Another analogy that some may be able to visualize it is from throwing a football. The throwing arm supplies the power (like a powder charge) and the throwing hand supplies the spin (like twist in a rifle barrel). The rate of spin is the same while the ball is still in the player's hand. However, when the player let's go of the football and throws it harder, you can actually see the ball spinning faster while it is in the air - thanks to the white lacing spinning around.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Dan,

Just wanted to say I believe you did an excellent job of encapsulating Forsythe's book. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

I have to admit the first two times I read my copy, mostly what I got from it was "If you want more killing capacity, increase the bore size with a round ball." However, there is a lot more to the book than that. :haha:

Gus