Even if they would work in a slow twist, which is very unlikely unless you use very short bullets, there's still the cost factor. Can you afford to do a lot of shooting using them? I sure can't, and doing a lot of shooting with whatever load you choose, is important for good marksmanship.
Round ball vs. Sabots
- Thread starter Tsegoweleh
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Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Currently the policy of the Forum is that In-Line rifles, pisols and shotguns are not to be discussed.Idaho Ron said:
Projectiles on the other hand are open to discussion which explains why this post is going on.
In my opinion, this is not all bad.
There are a lot of folks who wonder about things like using modern bullets in their guns. They may not even intend to shoot them but their curious about them.
By discussing the inherent problems with shooting sabots others can learn some of the reasons why they are not only not "better" but why they may be much worse than using patched roundballs or even slugs. Take the possibility of plastic fouling in the bore for example.
Little Wattsy
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Zonie said:
Thank You Zonie.
When I was newer I bought into the sabot concept cuz I always appreciate "better" Ive shot several and quite frankly done right they are about the same price (for practice rounds) as PRB. Stats avail apon request :wink:
Only through trial and error and FRIENDLY coaxing on this website have I proven to MY-OWN-SELF that connicals are just as good as plastic sabots (this for 100 yard shots w/ open sights, open ignition, loose powder). AND.......I am finding that PRB are ALMOST as good at 100 yards (meaning accuracy) and scary good out to 50yrds....
Bottom line its OK to allow for the learning curve for those who wish to learn. :grin:
jtmattison
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Stumpkiller said:
Very well said!
:applause:
HD
Tsegoweleh
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Uh-Huh...Yeah I was going to comment, But Ill not. :yakyak:
Walks with fire
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My old TC handbook states clearly not to shoot any saboted bullet from a roundball twist rifle. My rifle has .010 cut rifleing so I would assume that plastic would build up in those grooves.
I have shot them in my rifle and they stabilize well as long as they are short; such as .543 or so. They do not impact the to the same point of aim as a roundball but they will group at 100 yards around 3".
The PA Conical shoots well in my 1/66 twist rifle if I use 1 wrap of paper and they group into the same place as my roundball loads; saboted pistol bullets of the same length group well to but as I mentioned the point of impact is not even close to the same place. In my rifles it will be much higher and to the right with my right hand twist barrel and high to the left with the left hand twist barrel. It's about 8" higher and about 8" left or right depending on the barrels direction of twist. It appears that they are following the twist of the barrel more than the conical or roundball. I dont know but this is what happens. :hmm:
In my slow twist barrels I prefer the pure lead roundball or swagged lead PA conicals if I want a little more weight over the charge.
I have shot them in my rifle and they stabilize well as long as they are short; such as .543 or so. They do not impact the to the same point of aim as a roundball but they will group at 100 yards around 3".
The PA Conical shoots well in my 1/66 twist rifle if I use 1 wrap of paper and they group into the same place as my roundball loads; saboted pistol bullets of the same length group well to but as I mentioned the point of impact is not even close to the same place. In my rifles it will be much higher and to the right with my right hand twist barrel and high to the left with the left hand twist barrel. It's about 8" higher and about 8" left or right depending on the barrels direction of twist. It appears that they are following the twist of the barrel more than the conical or roundball. I dont know but this is what happens. :hmm:
In my slow twist barrels I prefer the pure lead roundball or swagged lead PA conicals if I want a little more weight over the charge.
Tsegoweleh
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Seems Conicals are the more modern way to get more punch. I have a very specific reason for the extra range. I wont go into it but thanks for the suggestions. Ill give them a try. I have good results with PRB to 100 yrds or so but was hoping for more range/accuracy.
We will see what we can do. Thanks
We will see what we can do. Thanks
Tsegoweleh
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Oh lets see...
Why are moderators allowing the disscussions on.
CO2 dischargers
Moose Juice
Lee lead pots
Wally World
Tri 7 and pyrodex
Should I go on?
This is a good forum ,I like it,"traditional", it is not. Thats why i posted here and not on the other Period correct forums.
How well said was that?
Mom used to say... "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt."
Why are moderators allowing the disscussions on.
CO2 dischargers
Moose Juice
Lee lead pots
Wally World
Tri 7 and pyrodex
Should I go on?
This is a good forum ,I like it,"traditional", it is not. Thats why i posted here and not on the other Period correct forums.
How well said was that?
Mom used to say... "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt."
paulvallandigham
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I don't understand your problem. You are coming across as a man with a chip on his shoulder, begging someone to bump into it.
Without knowing why you want more range with a traditional rifle- you refuse to discuss it-- I can't understand why you think you can't get closer to the game.
You are suppose to be HUNTING, not just shooting, at game. Hunting does require effort, woodsmanship skills, and a willingness to pass on a shot that is beyond your designated choice of maximum range.
I may be able to hit a target at 100 yds. on a regular basis, but I set my maximum range at 60 yards, just to give myself a margin for error based on all the conditions one encounters in the field, including " Buck Fever". Since I have shot most of my deer kills at ranges under 25 yards, that limitation has not caused me many missed " opportunities".
As to your list of stuff we discuss, Claude and the moderators do give some latitude To members to discuss and answer questions from New members, who may not understand how to separate the traditional from the HYPE. As a group, for instance, most of us prefer using Black Powder, only, in our traditional firearms. Some members do shoot the substitutes, but only a few claim they get better accuracy using them, than if they used Black Powder, instead.
I often ask new people to stop trying to re-invent the wheel. When it comes to black powder, and the guns designed to shoot it, all the " research" and " research and development" was done years ago. Just relax and enjoy learning all the subtle things that are not yet written in books, about shooting these guns, maintaining them, and getting the most accuracy from your shooting. You will go nuts soon enough trying to figure out how to deal with the changes in relative humidity from day to day, and during the course of a day, shooting these guns. You will soon learn that a load that put balls into a single hole at 50 yards yesterday, now seems to be sending them into a 3 inch group today! The "WHY" of that is what will keep you busy.
Best Wishes. :thumbsup:
Without knowing why you want more range with a traditional rifle- you refuse to discuss it-- I can't understand why you think you can't get closer to the game.
You are suppose to be HUNTING, not just shooting, at game. Hunting does require effort, woodsmanship skills, and a willingness to pass on a shot that is beyond your designated choice of maximum range.
I may be able to hit a target at 100 yds. on a regular basis, but I set my maximum range at 60 yards, just to give myself a margin for error based on all the conditions one encounters in the field, including " Buck Fever". Since I have shot most of my deer kills at ranges under 25 yards, that limitation has not caused me many missed " opportunities".
As to your list of stuff we discuss, Claude and the moderators do give some latitude To members to discuss and answer questions from New members, who may not understand how to separate the traditional from the HYPE. As a group, for instance, most of us prefer using Black Powder, only, in our traditional firearms. Some members do shoot the substitutes, but only a few claim they get better accuracy using them, than if they used Black Powder, instead.
I often ask new people to stop trying to re-invent the wheel. When it comes to black powder, and the guns designed to shoot it, all the " research" and " research and development" was done years ago. Just relax and enjoy learning all the subtle things that are not yet written in books, about shooting these guns, maintaining them, and getting the most accuracy from your shooting. You will go nuts soon enough trying to figure out how to deal with the changes in relative humidity from day to day, and during the course of a day, shooting these guns. You will soon learn that a load that put balls into a single hole at 50 yards yesterday, now seems to be sending them into a 3 inch group today! The "WHY" of that is what will keep you busy.
Best Wishes. :thumbsup:
longcruise
70 Cal.
Paul, I never got that feeling about him. He just asked a few questions.
He never said anything about hunting. Cripes, the guy might be a vegetarian for all I know. :haha:
"Why are the moderators even allowing this discussion? Ron"
As with many topics one can slip them in he backdoor rather easily, the mainstay of most mL hunters, the PRB can technically be defined as a from of Saboted load, the liberal definitions from 40 give or take years ago allow a lot of topics into the forum, that may not have made it on their own merit when given a reallistic and factual definition or type of terminology.
As with many topics one can slip them in he backdoor rather easily, the mainstay of most mL hunters, the PRB can technically be defined as a from of Saboted load, the liberal definitions from 40 give or take years ago allow a lot of topics into the forum, that may not have made it on their own merit when given a reallistic and factual definition or type of terminology.
paulvallandigham
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Are you reading the same posts I am????
"Seems Conicals are the more modern way to get more punch. I have a very specific reason for the extra range. I wont go into it....."
Now, I will concede that I read into that language that he is hunting game when he is talking about "Punch ", and he didn't say he was hunting. But, I don't think my assumption is wrong. :hmm: :thumbsup:
"Seems Conicals are the more modern way to get more punch. I have a very specific reason for the extra range. I wont go into it....."
Now, I will concede that I read into that language that he is hunting game when he is talking about "Punch ", and he didn't say he was hunting. But, I don't think my assumption is wrong. :hmm: :thumbsup:
Tsegoweleh
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Oatsayo All,
No Worries Guys, Dont get upset all is well.
No, I dont really have a chip on my shoulder,However, Comming from the Land of Liberals, I get really POed when I am singled out for the same thing others do with regularity.
I wont go into great detail but i hung up my modern Guns many years ago and now exclusivly use a FL. My reasoning for the extended range and "Punch",While not at all illeagal, Is not about Hunting. Its about Killing.
I posted here because of the great amount of knowledge in both Historical and modern Tehnique. There are so many Non-Historical posts here, I felt it was the place to ask.
No worries Guys, I am not angry with anyone.
Thanks for the input.
No Worries Guys, Dont get upset all is well.
No, I dont really have a chip on my shoulder,However, Comming from the Land of Liberals, I get really POed when I am singled out for the same thing others do with regularity.
I wont go into great detail but i hung up my modern Guns many years ago and now exclusivly use a FL. My reasoning for the extended range and "Punch",While not at all illeagal, Is not about Hunting. Its about Killing.
I posted here because of the great amount of knowledge in both Historical and modern Tehnique. There are so many Non-Historical posts here, I felt it was the place to ask.
No worries Guys, I am not angry with anyone.
Thanks for the input.
paulvallandigham
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Killing is a function primarily of accurate placement of a projectile, whatever you use. If you hit a vital organ or two, the animal is going to die. When it dies and where it dies is a function of both shot placement, and the weight of the ball.
Heavy balls penetrate further than do lighter balls.
Because all round balls have lousy ballistics Coefficients, pushing a ball out the barrel at higher velocity is Not necessarily going to translate into that same velocity increase at the target. In fact, drag factors increase with the speed a round ball enters the air, slowing the RB faster if it goes faster. So, the longer the distance to the target, the less delivered velocity arrives at the target, regardless of how much faster the ball leaves the muzzle. Worse, the faster the ball is sent down range, the more likely that it is not going to shoot as small a group, so that accuracy suffers when you increase the velocity of a round ball above an optimum speed. That is a function of the air turbulance created by the drag factor on the ball, as well as the reduction in velocity the further the ball travels.
ABout a year ago, someone posted some ballistics for a .50 caliber Round ball leaving the muzzle at a sizzling 1900 fps. At 50 yds, the velocity is down to 1409 fps. At 100 yds, the velocity is down to 1041 fps. at 120 yards, the velocity is down to 959 fps.
He zeroed his gun at 110 yards. At 50 yards, the ball was hitting 2.45 inches high. At 120 yards it was 1.46 inches low. That is pretty flat shooting, as it goes. However, as you increase that distance the ball drops faster and faster, making accurate range estimation critical to accurate placement of a RB on any animal.
If you look at those velocities you see that even at that fast MV, he is losing 25% of his velocity withing the first 50 yards, and more than 45% of his velocity out at 100 yds.
If you would make any conclusion about a black powder rifle shooting round balls, its that this is basically a 150 yard and less firearm, and anything beyond 100 yards requires a lot of practice for the shooter to hit any sized target, considering all the factors affecting that ball.
That is why the invention of tools precise enough to make conical bullets of a proper size, and barrels of an equally predictable size or diameter, changed the course of history of the development of firearms. It was well after our American Civil War, that manufacturers began to control bore dimensions to the thousandth of an inch, however, and true accuracy was being seen in production rifles. Custom rifles were ahead of production equipment by at least 25 years. If you are really looking for a gun that will kill accurately out past 150 yards, then I suggest you consider a gun designed to shoot conicals. There are, for instances, T/C rifles chambered for .58, with fast twists, that can shoot conicals at longer ranges and insure accurate hits, and quick death at those longer range. You may need to do some modification of the stock design to control recoil,But a .58 will do what you seem to be wanting.
Cheers. :thumbsup:
Heavy balls penetrate further than do lighter balls.
Because all round balls have lousy ballistics Coefficients, pushing a ball out the barrel at higher velocity is Not necessarily going to translate into that same velocity increase at the target. In fact, drag factors increase with the speed a round ball enters the air, slowing the RB faster if it goes faster. So, the longer the distance to the target, the less delivered velocity arrives at the target, regardless of how much faster the ball leaves the muzzle. Worse, the faster the ball is sent down range, the more likely that it is not going to shoot as small a group, so that accuracy suffers when you increase the velocity of a round ball above an optimum speed. That is a function of the air turbulance created by the drag factor on the ball, as well as the reduction in velocity the further the ball travels.
ABout a year ago, someone posted some ballistics for a .50 caliber Round ball leaving the muzzle at a sizzling 1900 fps. At 50 yds, the velocity is down to 1409 fps. At 100 yds, the velocity is down to 1041 fps. at 120 yards, the velocity is down to 959 fps.
He zeroed his gun at 110 yards. At 50 yards, the ball was hitting 2.45 inches high. At 120 yards it was 1.46 inches low. That is pretty flat shooting, as it goes. However, as you increase that distance the ball drops faster and faster, making accurate range estimation critical to accurate placement of a RB on any animal.
If you look at those velocities you see that even at that fast MV, he is losing 25% of his velocity withing the first 50 yards, and more than 45% of his velocity out at 100 yds.
If you would make any conclusion about a black powder rifle shooting round balls, its that this is basically a 150 yard and less firearm, and anything beyond 100 yards requires a lot of practice for the shooter to hit any sized target, considering all the factors affecting that ball.
That is why the invention of tools precise enough to make conical bullets of a proper size, and barrels of an equally predictable size or diameter, changed the course of history of the development of firearms. It was well after our American Civil War, that manufacturers began to control bore dimensions to the thousandth of an inch, however, and true accuracy was being seen in production rifles. Custom rifles were ahead of production equipment by at least 25 years. If you are really looking for a gun that will kill accurately out past 150 yards, then I suggest you consider a gun designed to shoot conicals. There are, for instances, T/C rifles chambered for .58, with fast twists, that can shoot conicals at longer ranges and insure accurate hits, and quick death at those longer range. You may need to do some modification of the stock design to control recoil,But a .58 will do what you seem to be wanting.
Cheers. :thumbsup:
"I am sure you look fetching in your purple miniskirts and and man dresses, but I don't need to discuss them or argue with you. Ron '
Good, then just crawl back under your rock you modern ML huntin' Guru of the art of shooting the modern bullit.
Good, then just crawl back under your rock you modern ML huntin' Guru of the art of shooting the modern bullit.
Tsegoweleh said:
Abe Lincoln and Samuel Johnson before him, too. You should have listened.
Do I understand from your back-handed accusation that the moderators are shirking duty or being unfair or that one of the moderators edited, erased or in any way shape or form disallowed your original post or subsequent posts? We're pretty obliging here, but that's no reason to call us "liberals". When I stop holding opinions, shoot me.
Yeah, some of us sneak electric furnaces out to run round balls and buy caps from mail-order chains. It's hard to know when to draw a line. Usually it starts with a complaint from a member.
Moderator duties and obligations and personal opinions can be quite different. Just 'cause I allow something doesn't mean I agree and the opposite is true, too. Believe it or not we try to be fair.
And PS - Ben Franklin could have mixed up a batch of Moose Juice. I can't prove the mix was made but the components were carefully selected to have been available in colonial America.
Murphy's Oil is simply soft soap and the rest are generic compounds & oils.
Tsegoweleh
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Sorry Stumpkiller,
Dont know what you are meaning. The Moderators havent done anything. That was not the meaning of my post. Somewhere you must have gotten something confused. No worries.
The mods are fine with me.
Dont know what you are meaning. The Moderators havent done anything. That was not the meaning of my post. Somewhere you must have gotten something confused. No worries.
The mods are fine with me.
Stumpkiller said:
If I may add to this, we moderators do discuss each situation with each other in the back room as they arise, and then decide on a fair and ethical course of action. The last thing we want to do is suppress someone's right of free speech or start an angry mob.
But we too are human and yes, we have made judgement errors in the past, but we try to learn from our mistakes and press on. We cannot read every post as they occur, there are just too many and that may seem like we let some things go while others we catch and correct. We do the best we can for the amount of money we are being paid. BTW, we all do this for free.
