Round ball vs. Sabots

[Idaho Ron]

Good, then just crawl back under your rock you modern ML huntin' Guru of the art of shooting the modern bullit.

I actually take that as a complement. Everything I shoot, the rifle, the powder, the bullets, and the sights are allowed by this site. By the way mister, "I am PC and HC". You are not as HC or as PC as you want people to think you are. Here is a quote from a different thread.

I find the Arrow Tall Leigionier or a home made pair of center seams to work well I also have a modified pair with a side seam amd a pleated rubber sole vulcanized on, not so PC but handy at times, I usually wear my Gore-tex socks and the Leigionier as I have found that as age increases the need to appear tough and rugged gives way to comfort and thoughts of continued good health.

I would think that gortex, and rubber sole's are higher tech than a peep sight or a lead bullet.
I think you need to cool off. It seems that YOU can use technology if you want to but I am not allowed.
By the way I don't think you have to worry about looking "tough or rugged" we can see your avatar. Ron :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Tsegoweleh]

Please friends,
this has gotten way out of context.
All this from a misunderstanding. All is well.
You moderators are great No worries, Please dont let this get into a maresnest over me.
Its been a rough couple of weeks.

 

[musketman]

Please friends,
this has gotten way out of context.

I agree, we should concentrate on the original topic, which is as follows:

What are your opinions of using Saboted bullets in a slowtwist barrel?
Is there any advantage to saboted bullets in velocity or range and accruracy?

Please keep all future replies to this topic.

 

[longcruise]

I agree, we should concentrate on the original topic, which is as follows:



Tsegoweleh Said:
What are your opinions of using Saboted bullets in a slowtwist barrel?
Is there any advantage to saboted bullets in velocity or range and accruracy?




Please keep all future replies to this topic.

In the spirit of the above I would like to know what is the rate of twist on the rifle you plan to use and how far do you plan to shoot?

 

[Tsegoweleh]

Oatsayo,
I have a .50 cal greenmtn PRB barrel. dont know the twist. But im sure it the slow twist. Shoots great to 100yrds with PRB. It was more of a "can i do better" Type question.
Thanks

 

[longcruise]

I have a .50 cal greenmtn PRB barrel. dont know the twist. But im sure it the slow twist. Shoots great to 100yrds with PRB. It was more of a "can i do better" Type question.

Your GM barrel is almost for certain a 1:70 twist and is indeed a great rb barrel. It could also be a 1:28 twist though. One way to identify is by barrel length. the 1:28 barrels are usually 28 inches long and the 1:70 barrels are usually 32 inches long. If a 1:70 it's not going to make a very good conical or sabot barrel though.

The only twist rate I've used for sabot is the TC 1:48 and it will stabilize .44 cal bullets up to about 240 grains. Once past that point they are likely to destabilize and fly sideways. My own cast lee 255 grain wadcutters did ok. Best from my twist was the .44 cal 180 grain bullets. These easily exceeded 2000 fps in a Hornady sabot and of course being .44 in diameter and the same weight as a .50 cal rb, they would have had a better BC and better retained energy, etc.

You mentioned that you wanted better killing power but it's hard to say if the 180 or even the heavier .44 slugs would be better than a rb in the killing dept. Lot's of opinion here on that score but so far not that many who have actually used both. :wink:

If you could lay your hands on a fast twist .45 barrel that would drop into your present gun,then you would have some serious killing capacity using 300 to 400 grain conicals. :shocked2:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Put a tight fitting patch on the rod and push it down to the breech. Put a piece of masking tape on the rod at the muzzle and mark an index line on the tape along the bore's axis (along the rod). Pull out the rod until the index line has made one half revolution. Measure from the inner edge of the tape to the muzzle and double that and there's your rate of twist.

For a fast twist you can do one full revolution, but a 1:80" twist would have you halwway across the room.

Gee, thanks Mr. Wizard!

You're welcome, Jimmy.

 

[chuck-ia]

Unless you are really bored, why the heck would you want to shoot sabots in a real muzzleloader? why not just go and get an inline and experiment? I just don't think sabots have anything to do with trad. muzzleloading. I can live with conicals, but sabots are MODERN. For the life of me, I don't understand why people buy a muzzleloader, then start stuffing imitation powder, and sabots down the barrel? Maybe they feel it gives them an advantage? Bragging rights on how they shot a deer at 150 yards? Maybe they are just afraid to do thing the traditional way, sidelock muzzleloader, real blackpowder, and a patched round ball? Sorry to rant, but I thought this was a traditional forum? flinch

 

[musketman]

I just don't think sabots have anything to do with trad. muzzleloading. I can live with conicals, but sabots are MODERN.

Historically, sabots have been around since the Civil War, maybe even longer. The word "sabot" means shoe. Civil war sabots were mostly used in cannons and made of wood.

This specimen of Federal spherical solid shot was never fired, as can be seen by the wooden sabot still attached with iron straps. It is 4.5 inches in diameter, which provided the necessary windage for the 4.62-inch diameter of the Napoleon. The groove in the base of the sabot allowed the powder charge to be tied to it, after which it would be referred to as fixed ammunition. This was the most common solid projectile used in the Civil War.

The scaled down version of plastic sabots is where history and modern design take a seperate path.

Now, if they only made the modern sabot out of wood... :hmm: :haha:

 

[chuck-ia]

Sorry, sometimes I can get a little carried away with my oppinions. flinch

 

[musketman]

No need to be sorry, we are all in here to learn. :hatsoff:

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I'll just add my :2 and say that I too tried to shoot conicals (T/C 370 grain Maxi's in .50 cal) out of my Navy Arms Ithica Hawken :redface: . I couldn't find the target frame at 100 yards :shocked2: . Loaded it normal, soft & "hot", it didn't matter. It only shoots PRB's well, so that's all that I feed it!

Now, that all being said, I've probably shot more Maxi's than anybody else on this forum :stir:. I do it with a rifle with a 1 in 48 twist though. Been my experience that this projectile along with 70 grains of real Goex is really capable!

Bottom line is this: If you really want to hurl huge chunks (e.g.: 370 grain Maxi's) of hot lead a long way, get yourself a custom 36" or 40" barrel with a fast 1 in 24 twist and pour 100 grains of 3Fg down the throat and HOLD ON :youcrazy: cause you'll be in for a heck of a push :surrender:. I didn't build mine yet (the Flinchmaker) but I have been thinking about it since I've been reading this thread. Packs about the same punch as a .45-120 BPCR :shocked2:

Never used sabots. Never will! Don't like the thought of having to use Shooter's Choice to emulsify the plastic to get it out of the bore. I think that the sabots would group about the same as the Maxi's out of a slow twist barrel. One of our members tried this (the sabots) and he was "all over the place" at a regular monthly match. He went back to PRB"s and does quite well!

Just my crazy ramblings :youcrazy:

Dave

 

[Walks with fire]

I have a RMC flinter with the GM 1/28 twist barrel and I also shoot a TC roundball rifle. I like both and I use both for deer hunting. Here in PA the deer are pretty tough to get close to in the flinter season because it follows our 2 week centerfire season. I like using sabots; conicals in the fast twist for a bit longer reach and power. I still hunt on some days with my roundball .50 caliber.

I hunt for the meat; not bragging rights or antler size. I don't even speak about my deer kills for the most part. If I didn't like venison I am quite sure I would not even hunt them; firearms are the tool to get it done and nothing more to me.

My state permits the use of sabots; conicals and roundball and I have firearms that shoot them all. I have no intention of being concerned about being too technological or PC/HC. I am a modern day hunter.

I am not directing this post to anyone or anything; but I realize that we all have the right to use any legal means to harvest your game. If some of you like the traditional ways by all means enjoy it. I try to keep my posts pertaining to roundball projectiles but the man did ask and it was accepted by the moderator.

This forum is great and I try to abide by the rules and make my posts accordingly. I have learned a great deal from many different folks here and enjoy the old ways as much as the modern. I shoot flinters for black powder and that is one thing that will never change for me. Whatever I stuff down the barrel is of no concern to me as long as it works and is used within the parameters of effectiveness.

 

[Tom Compton]

After several trips to New Mexico hunting mulies, a couple of friends of mine ware tired of seeing good bucks out of range of their .50 PRB combos.

They bought .45-70 barrels from Numrich, breeched them and dropped in traditional per-suction rig. Added tang peep sights and made meat using .45 cast bullets and 100 gr FFFg. First one killed with the new super dooper long range hunter was at 60 yards. Go Figure.

TC

 

[roundball]

Historically, sabots have been around since the Civil War, maybe even longer. The word "sabot" means shoe. Civil war sabots were mostly used in cannons and made of wood.

:grin: :grin: :grin: ...now MM...I don't have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out...in a friendly helpful manner...that we do seem to be operating with double standards to some extent.

On the one hand, we know that there were "inlines" made way back when but because they never caught on and survived, we don't use that brief period attempt back then as a legitimate basis to consider and discuss inlines as muzzleloaders here;

It seems like referring to the saboted cannon ball kind of puts us in that same category...yeah, some were made but they never caught on and survived as being typical of the muzzleloading era...yet we're discussing plastic sabots here.

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

 

[musketman]

:grin: :grin: :grin: ...now MM...I don't have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out...in a friendly helpful manner...that we do seem to be operating with double standards to some extent.
It seems like referring to the saboted cannon ball kind of puts us in that same category...

but sabots are MODERN.

I was simply stating to member Flinch that there was sabots back then, nothing else. I was not condoning their usage. I realize its like comparing wooden apples to plastic oranges but the truth is, they did exist.

Another point is that the U.S. Civil War was our first "modern" war, many of the military and civilian advances that we have today originated there, so why not sabots? (not that a sabot is an "advance" that I myself would choose to utilize)

 

[Stumpkiller]

While Leonardo DaVinchi drew up muzzleloading machine guns and amphibious tanks in the late 1490's it may not be considered generally acceptable to drive up in one towing the carriage multi-barreled muzzleloader at a primative shoot or hunt.

Just because something was designed or existed does not make it traditional or common in civilian usage. We, as civilian hunters, don't go deer hunting with Maverick missles or HEAT tank rounds even though the military has and uses lots of them recently.

 

[tg]

"I was simply stating to member Flinch that there was sabots back then, nothing else. I was not condoning their usage. I realize its like comparing wooden apples to plastic oranges but the truth is, they did exist."

point well taken, I wrap a cloth sabot around the ball befotre I load it most of the time, and I have heard that cats with six toes were quite common during the middle ages...this is about as relevant as anything else we have been discussing.

 

[Zoar]

Original post--- "What are your opinions of using Saboted bullets in a slowtwist barrel?"

I think it is fair to say opinions are they probably won't work for poop. Sure, you may get lucky, but that would be the rare exception.

How far beynd 100 yards are you needing to pack that punch?

I would say it is worth trying in your slow twist gun. For a few bucks you can test them.

We have had several threads on 200 yard shooting with round ball that have been most intriging and educational. I know before I went to saboted bullets I would test my round ball shooting at that greater than 100 yard distances. But that could just be me... (and oh darn, I won't get to tow my amphibious tank up to the next Rendevoux!!! boo hooo and darn darn darn)