round balls don't do well

[Tenmile]

A one inch group at 100 yards is properly identified as a series of fortunate fliers.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a 1/16” movement of a 42” barrel will move the poi about 7.2” at 100 yds and a 1/32” movement will move it 3.8”. Even on cross sticks I’m not that steady. This would be in perfect conditions with no wind. I have a couple of cloverleaf targets hanging on my wall, but I don’t talk about the other hundreds.

 

[Walkaheap]

I always tell onlookers at the range that the rifles I build all shoot much better than I do

 

[Gary Kirk]

I know this feeling all too well

Also, that feeling when you are walking toward a 100 yard target you just fired 5 shots at , and you slowly begin to realize the target is totally clean without any holes in it

Been there done that

 

[Grenadier1758]

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and maybe make a few people upset. Many people that tell you that they shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards with a muzzleloader are lying. I’ve been shooting matches for 20+ years. Even the best shooters have a great day when all holes are in the black on an NRA target at 100 yards. I can nail 1 inch or maybe clover leaf rounds at 50 most days but I’ve never gotten better than a four inch group at 100 yards. Some matches I’ll have a phenomenal 100 yard target. The next match I’ll be all over the place. That’s with numerous rifles. Wind, sun, humidity, rain. All those affect the outcome. Sometimes we assume our loads just aren’t right and keep experimenting to no success. Sometimes it’s just that we aren’t that good, our sights aren’t up to par, the sun is shining in the wrong direction and let us not forget the wind. The range where I shoot matches is always windy. My eyes aren’t the best either using iron sights. Focus on getting better groups at 50 before you even consider shooting at 100. If your sights hinder you at 50 then they are gonna kill ya at 100. Keep practicing and working on those loads. Let a better shooter have a go with your rifle at 50 also. See what those results are. Sometimes it’s just not the rifle or the load. Sometimes we just have a bad day or aren’t as great of a shooter as those folks claiming scoped bolt action accuracy at 100 with an iron sighted muzzleloader. Do those phenomenal 10x 100 yard 1inch targets exist? Yes. Can they be duplicated on a regular basis? Probably not.

One of the additional factors that exist when going from a tight grouping at 50 yards to an open pattern at 100 yards is the effect of the ball's velocity as the velocity drops from above the speed of sound to below the speed of sound. Most balls start off with a velocity above the speed of sound. At 50 yards, the ball is still travelling above the speed of sound. By 100 yards, the velocity drops below the speed of sound and the ball has transitioned from smooth flight through a turbulent region adding a random factor to the trajectory. Either the ball needs to be travelling above the speed of sound at 100 yards or below the speed of sound the entire flight. That all the other factors will have an impact on the group at 100 yards.

 

[waksupi]

I'm surprised more people don't use a slower twist for round balls.I realize every barrel can be different.Tighter twists work well for conicals.I still use a montana rifle barrel from the MRBC on my .54 JBMR.35" long barrel.1 in 72" twist with my round balls.Thin silver blade front site.Used to target shoot it a lot at local shoots.
Sort of wish I would of kept the 30" barrel it came with as it had the serial number on the barrel yet,but I did'nt need it so I sold it.
I've had this gun since the early 1980's.Killed tons of deer with it.
Shot very well if I remember correctly at 50 yards.100 yards were a bit wider though but most in the black yet.I spit patch wiped in between shots with long underwear patches.If I did'nt it would throw a flyer now and then.Used .52 or tighter fitting .530 balls with lubed pillow ticking patch with usually 80 grains of FF.
I hav'nt needed to replace any parts on this gun,but showed through my research where the parts could be yet.

I think the building is now a herbal business. There is another Montana Rifle Barrel Co. operating in the area, but a different owner and location, specializing in modern barrels. I think they make them mostly for Remington.

 

[user 55620]

The bp club that I am a member of shoot mainly Enfield 3 band muzzle loaders. They shoot hollow based, skirted home cast bullets.
I have only used the 100 yard range. Other members shoot at up to 500 yards with success using number 7 targets. We do not have our own range and share a range with another club. We have to obey their range rules. No duplex loads. No patches. No wads. No fillers. I think that the rules have been caused by shooters not clearing up their mess after shooting.
Powder. Bullet. Tap twice with the ramrod and shoot. It seems to work for them. None of them have had much success using round ball.
I used a modern replica and didn’t always hit the target. Most members use original Enfields.
OSF

 

[coupe]

The problem is put to bed, I went to the range today and the first 6 shots were in a 3" group at 48 yds. next 2 were lifted to be 3" above center for a 100 yd try. I used 85 gr. 3f and my casted 320 gr maxiballs. not even weighed to match them like I did with the balls. 1st. 3" left of cntr. 2d dead cntr. 3 & 4 just right of cntr. next I tried 4 shots with a dirty bbl. 5 & 6 went edge of black, 6 high and in the white 7 low and in white. I cleaned and sighted a fresh target put 3 in a 3" bull. Conclusion I have a slug gun! And it seems a darn good one at that.
Thanks for the suggestions I needed to clear my mind and try a new angle.
coupe

 

[Relic shooter]

RIFLING & RATES OF TWIST
I think most experienced competitive shooters can agree that depth of rifling & rate of twist are the prime determining factors for accuracy with round ball & projectiles. I shoot mostly original European & English flint & percussion firearms that were mostly designed for round balls & 'almost' without exception they all have faster twist 'deeper rifling' ranging from .012- .018 + deep & off of a proper bench rest most shoot cloverleaf groups at 100 yds with the proper patch, lube & powder load combo.
I've bragged on this forum before on my old 71/4lb. percussion Danish built Jaeger .70 cal. rifle with before with deep fast 1 in 30" twist rifling. I & others have consistently shot cloverleaf prb groups at 50 & 100 +yds off of a rest with 80 grains of 2f..
The only exception I've run across are target pistols & some rifles that featured a shallow micro-grove styled rifling, they've all shot very accurately with the proper load combo.
Most original target rifles of the same vintage I've tested were designed to shoot fitted slugs featured much shallower depth rifling & often had even faster rates of twist. The exception was my old Whitworth target rifle, it required projectiles that were cast in the proper length & dimensions of it's unusual bore for optimal accuracy.
I've not mentioned belted ball rifles in the target category because all of those I've encountered were designed for big game hunting or military use..

My bad for not mentioning smooth bore firearms, they also have round ball accuracy potential !
I did win a 50 yard rifle match at a Pagosa Springs rendezvous years ago & a few other medals with a French styled flintlock fusil that I built & regulated the tapered octagon to round barrel to shoot dead-on @ 50 yds.
relic shooter

 

[Stantheman86]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a 1/16” movement of a 42” barrel will move the poi about 7.2” at 100 yds and a 1/32” movement will move it 3.8”. Even on cross sticks I’m not that steady. This would be in perfect conditions with no wind. I have a couple of cloverleaf targets hanging on my wall, but I don’t talk about the other hundreds.

Some days the planets align and we shoot way better than we usually do. Some days we leave the range like "I'm not even sure what happened, I basically just came here to make noise"

People will only talk about or post about match shoots where they were dialed in and shot a ragged hole at 100...no one brags about coming home empty handed . So the cross-section of knowledge among shooters is that every rifle is supposed to shoot 1" at 100 or there's something wrong with it

 

[Patched]

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and maybe make a few people upset. Many people that tell you that they shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards with a muzzleloader are lying. I’ve been shooting matches for 20+ years. Even the best shooters have a great day when all holes are in the black on an NRA target at 100 yards. I can nail 1 inch or maybe clover leaf rounds at 50 most days but I’ve never gotten better than a four inch group at 100 yards. Some matches I’ll have a phenomenal 100 yard target. The next match I’ll be all over the place. That’s with numerous rifles. Wind, sun, humidity, rain. All those affect the outcome. Sometimes we assume our loads just aren’t right and keep experimenting to no success. Sometimes it’s just that we aren’t that good, our sights aren’t up to par, the sun is shining in the wrong direction and let us not forget the wind. The range where I shoot matches is always windy. My eyes aren’t the best either using iron sights. Focus on getting better groups at 50 before you even consider shooting at 100. If your sights hinder you at 50 then they are gonna kill ya at 100. Keep practicing and working on those loads. Let a better shooter have a go with your rifle at 50 also. See what those results are. Sometimes it’s just not the rifle or the load. Sometimes we just have a bad day or aren’t as great of a shooter as those folks claiming scoped bolt action accuracy at 100 with an iron sighted muzzleloader. Do those phenomenal 10x 100 yard 1inch targets exist? Yes. Can they be duplicated on a regular basis? Probably not.

Treeman…I’ve been round balling for 50 years…I can testify that precision shooting is limited by our gunsights…open sights at 100yds is usually a 2-4 inch affair in ideal conditions…use precision peep sights 1-2 and a half inch groups…Benchrest shooters use 36x to minimize the micro sighting errors, heat maragé and sunlight trickery…
You’re just stating the facts of life.

 

[Seeleybc1]

Man isn’t it something the things we realize we have taken for granted as we age?
Age is relative, and I’m not that old, but my eyes just in the last few years have started to change. The rifles I shoot frequently, muzzleloaders and cartridge, are all slowly getting peeps installed!
I can remember being 15, 16, 17 whatever years old shooting down at Friendship, and thinking all the old timers were goof balls for their glasses set ups. Who’s laughing now…

 

[Nor'Easter]

I have a .32 cal TC Cherokee that I keep around for the grandkids to use, because the front sight isn't far enough away to be in focus anymore. As has been said many times on the forum, 'getting old isn't for the faint of heart'. Or 'you have to be pretty tough to get old'.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have been fighting with ball and patch in my 1:48 50 cal hawken, got to a good patch and lube but it does not shoot well at 100 yds. With a .495 ball and a .024 denim patch TOW mink oil lube at 48 yards I get a 2 1/2" grouping, but out at 100 it will spray in an 8" circle. Starting at 60 gr 3f all the way to 95 gr. raises the poi but still has a very good group at 48 but a big spread at 100. This patch n lube did the best at 48, but has no better pattern at 100. I wonder if a .490 would be better, has any one found an improvement with the smaller ball. (my bore is .500 .517 in the lands by slugging the bbl.
coupe

Most likely a vision or choice of target color/shape/size problem. Most people do not realize how much of an effect the target has on groups.
Smaller is not always better.

 

[Stantheman86]

Most likely a vision or choice of target color/shape/size problem. Most people do not realize how much of an effect the target has on groups.
Smaller is not always better.

I usually do better with big white FBI Q-Targets because the white color brings the sight picture out and theres no distraction of a "bullseye" , you just hold at Center Mass and squeeze

 

[jambuster]

I have a Lyman GPR in 54 with a 1 in 60" twist
I get 2" groups at 50 yards when I do my part. That's about what I expect.

Hornaday Swaged .530 ball
110 grs Graff fffg
.015 cotton patch
Lubed with TOW Mink Oil
Rem or Cci cap

I bought this gun to hunt at close range in the thick woods of West Tennessee. I could shoot farther but in my mind an ethical hunter doesn't stretch his shot.

Just so you know I shoot 90% or more of my shots at beer and coke cans cause I can always find them and they are in season year round

 

[M. De Land]

One of the additional factors that exist when going from a tight grouping at 50 yards to an open pattern at 100 yards is the effect of the ball's velocity as the velocity drops from above the speed of sound to below the speed of sound. Most balls start off with a velocity above the speed of sound. At 50 yards, the ball is still travelling above the speed of sound. By 100 yards, the velocity drops below the speed of sound and the ball has transitioned from smooth flight through a turbulent region adding a random factor to the trajectory. Either the ball needs to be travelling above the speed of sound at 100 yards or below the speed of sound the entire flight. That all the other factors will have an impact on the group at 100 yards.

Great though, I hadn't considered trans-sonic disruption with a ball but am very familiar with it in Mid and Long range bullet flight.

 

[Mr. Flintlock]

I

I have been fighting with ball and patch in my 1:48 50 cal hawken, got to a good patch and lube but it does not shoot well at 100 yds. With a .495 ball and a .024 denim patch TOW mink oil lube at 48 yards I get a 2 1/2" grouping, but out at 100 it will spray in an 8" circle. Starting at 60 gr 3f all the way to 95 gr. raises the poi but still has a very good group at 48 but a big spread at 100. This patch n lube did the best at 48, but has no better pattern at 100. I wonder if a .490 would be better, has any one found an improvement with the smaller ball. (my bore is .500 .517 in the lands by slugging the bbl.
coupe

I'd lower the powder charge or shoot conicals.

 

[oldwood]

The rifling and twist is really not designed to shoot round balls with large powder charges. If you try a .490 ball , and a thinner .015 patch w/ 75gr. , to 80gr. of FFFG , this might be the answer. The barrels I've used on long rifles are 1 turn in 60" , .50 cal. , w/ .490 ball , grease lube .015 patch , with as much of the grease lube scraped off the patch as easily done. My best groups are around 3 " at 50 yds , and 4" to ^ " at 100 yds.. I'm old ,and have to use a tang mounted peep sight. A dead on hold at 100 yds. , gives a 3 " drop .. Just a suggestion..........oldwood

 

[oldwood]

The rifling and twist is really not designed to shoot round balls with large powder charges. If you try a .490 ball , and a thinner .015 patch w/ 75gr. , to 80gr. of FFFG , this might be the answer. The barrels I've used on long rifles are 1 turn in 60" , .50 cal. , w/ .490 ball , grease lube .015 patch , with as much of the grease lube scraped off the patch as easily done. My best groups are around 3 " at 50 yds , and 4" to ^ " at 100 yds.. I'm old ,and have to use a tang mounted peep sight. A dead on hold at 100 yds. , gives a 3 " drop .. Just a suggestion..........oldwood

 

[aussie pete]

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and maybe make a few people upset. Many people that tell you that they shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards with a muzzleloader are lying. I’ve been shooting matches for 20+ years. Even the best shooters have a great day when all holes are in the black on an NRA target at 100 yards. I can nail 1 inch or maybe clover leaf rounds at 50 most days but I’ve never gotten better than a four inch group at 100 yards. Some matches I’ll have a phenomenal 100 yard target. The next match I’ll be all over the place. That’s with numerous rifles. Wind, sun, humidity, rain. All those affect the outcome. Sometimes we assume our loads just aren’t right and keep experimenting to no success. Sometimes it’s just that we aren’t that good, our sights aren’t up to par, the sun is shining in the wrong direction and let us not forget the wind. The range where I shoot matches is always windy. My eyes aren’t the best either using iron sights. Focus on getting better groups at 50 before you even consider shooting at 100. If your sights hinder you at 50 then they are gonna kill ya at 100. Keep practicing and working on those loads. Let a better shooter have a go with your rifle at 50 also. See what those results are. Sometimes it’s just not the rifle or the load. Sometimes we just have a bad day or aren’t as great of a shooter as those folks claiming scoped bolt action accuracy at 100 with an iron sighted muzzleloader. Do those phenomenal 10x 100 yard 1inch targets exist? Yes. Can they be duplicated on a regular basis? Probably not.

Nice! I've come to the conclusion that my ability lies (no pun intended ) in the 50 to 60 metre range at best. I won't shoot an animal past this, and as my club's range is set for the usual 25, 50, 75, 100 etc, I very rarely venture beyond 50 metres when shooting paper. I too read about those close groups at the longer distances, made with standard production rifles and open sights; in the early stages, I used to feel inadequate, but am now reconciled to factual events.

Pete