Ruger Old Army

[M. De Land]

Mike has refuted his claims and proven what he (45D) has said on here many many times but you can't make an irrational person rational anymore than you can force a horse to drink.

All he has demonstrated is that a very massive open frame gun (Dragoon) has thus far contained some plus P pressure levels "not magnum" ( which by the way would test his equal strength contention) pressure levels, as efficiently as closed frame design. The test would need to be conducted with at least 500 rounds and then if the revolver survived the barrel cylinder gap re-measured to confirm that no stretch has been noted.
Also it must be remembered that none of the manufacturer's I'm aware of will advise or recommend plus P loads in their convertible cylinders and it ain't the cylinder their worried about .

 

[Dickydalton]

All he has demonstrated is that a very massive open frame gun (Dragoon) has thus far contained some plus P pressure levels "not magnum" ( which by the way would test his equal strength contention) pressure levels, as efficiently as closed frame design. The test would need to be conducted with at least 500 rounds and then if the revolver survived the barrel cylinder gap re-measured to confirm that no stretch has been noted.
Also it must be remembered that none of the manufacturer's I'm aware of will advise or recommend plus P loads in their convertible cylinders and it ain't the cylinder their worried about .

He's shown 1860s shooting Plus P 45 ACP. That's not a dragoon so don't lie about what he's shown.

 

[M. De Land]

He's shown 1860s shooting Plus P 45 ACP. That's not a dragoon so don't lie about what he's shown.

Ok, run the 60 to 30K Dicky my Ladd and prove the same contention !

 

[45D]

Ok, run the 60 to 30K Dicky my Ladd and prove the same contention !

Thanks Dicky!!

Well, Dicky isn't your Ladd and I never set out to push a 30K round through a '60 !!! Still got that "bug" for 30K in your head? Where (again) does that even come from? What "same contention"? You're not making any sense.

Mike

 

[Dude]

All he has demonstrated is that a very massive open frame gun (Dragoon) has thus far contained some plus P pressure levels "not magnum" ( which by the way would test his equal strength contention) pressure levels, as efficiently as closed frame design. The test would need to be conducted with at least 500 rounds and then if the revolver survived the barrel cylinder gap re-measured to confirm that no stretch has been noted.
Also it must be remembered that none of the manufacturer's I'm aware of will advise or recommend plus P loads in their convertible cylinders and it ain't the cylinder their worried about .

I don't understand the argument here. I must be dense because it's not getting through to me. Let me put it into words as it appears to me:

1. Open tops aren't a strong design. Common opinion and M.D.L.
2. Proof: manufacturers don't make open top Magnums (M.D.L.)
3. (45D) debunks that datum by shooting nearly double the intended pressure loads in open tops
4. #3 isn't valid proof since 45D isn't shooting Magnum loads (M.D.L.)

And then it's also not valid proof because 45D is using a massive open top. Well, yeah - aren't magnums massive guns?
But 45D isn't shooting magnum loads in a massive open top...

What have I missed in this logic sequence?

Ok - we'll find out just how much a Walker can handle since 45D is working his way up gradually. At some point it'll reach its limit. Perhaps someone would like to test a Walker conversion to see if it will survive magnum loads. Do it now, and see if it self destructs. (please don't do it where you could get hurt!)

Being that the Walker was the most powerful revolver till the 357 Mag, it shouldn't take much to reach magnum levels. (which seems proof enough to me - as if the concept and design hasn't already been proven)

 

[Dickydalton]

Thanks Dicky!!

Well, Dicky isn't your Ladd and I never set out to push a 30K round through a '60 !!! Still got that "bug" for 30K in your head? Where (again) does that even come from? What "same contention"? You're not making any sense.

Mike

He never has or does...

 

[45D]

All he has demonstrated is that a very massive open frame gun (Dragoon) has thus far contained some plus P pressure levels "not magnum" ( which by the way would test his equal strength contention) pressure levels, as efficiently as closed frame design. The test would need to be conducted with at least 500 rounds and then if the revolver survived the barrel cylinder gap re-measured to confirm that no stretch has been noted.

Do you even read anything around here? I've posted for years here about +p's fired in my '60's with up to 2000 rounds of which at least a third have been +p rounds. So that would be 2000 rounds with a minimum 21,000 psi with a third of them being 23,000 psi.

Also it must be remembered that none of the manufacturer's I'm aware of will advise or recommend plus P loads in their convertible cylinders and it ain't the cylinder their worried about .

Again man, do you read ANY posts posted? I just posted about this this afternoon!!!
I run this ammo as a test of the OPEN-TOP PLATFORM ( not Open Frame , I don't even know what that would be!!!).

Mike

 

[Dude]

I've posted for years here about +p's fired in my '60's with up to 2000 rounds of which at least a third have been +p rounds. So that would be 2000 rounds with a minimum 21,000 psi with a third of them being 23,000 psi.

Correction: One third of 2,000 would be close to 700 rounds of +p loads. Oops - didn't totally duplicate your statement. Yes, you did say that a third of the 2,000 were at 23,000 psi.

 

[Dickydalton]

And, the befuddled remain befuddled...

 

[45D]

This thinking is patently absurd and provably false ! Open frame design will never be able to handle thrust pressure as efficiently as closed frame design !

Actually, I proved THIS thinking wrong the first day I shot +p 45acp ammo in THE first '60 Army to make to a range and be fired!!! The first 5 +p rounds were shot in a TOP STRAP Pietta copy of the Colt SAA!!! Those were the ONLY rounds fired in that revolver. The Pietta SAA copy moved enough to not allow the 45C cylinder to be loaded when installed.
So, on that day and henceforth, the OPEN-TOP platform WOULD be able to handle ammo pressures that many TOP STRAP SA's can't.
TOTALLY PROVED !!!
(notice the word Magnum hasn't appeared until this sentence)

Mike

 

[Dickydalton]

https://tenor.com/view/fml-sylvester-cat-annoyed-headbang-gif-7605980029532191439

 

[Dickydalton]

sorry Mike.

 

[M. De Land]

I don't understand the argument here. I must be dense because it's not getting through to me. Let me put it into words as it appears to me:

1. Open tops aren't a strong design. Common opinion and M.D.L.
2. Proof: manufacturers don't make open top Magnums (M.D.L.)
3. (45D) debunks that datum by shooting nearly double the intended pressure loads in open tops
4. #3 isn't valid proof since 45D isn't shooting Magnum loads (M.D.L.)

And then it's also not valid proof because 45D is using a massive open top. Well, yeah - aren't magnums massive guns?
But 45D isn't shooting magnum loads in a massive open top...

What have I missed in this logic sequence?

Ok - we'll find out just how much a Walker can handle since 45D is working his way up gradually. At some point it'll reach its limit. Perhaps someone would like to test a Walker conversion to see if it will survive magnum loads. Do it now, and see if it self destructs. (please don't do it where you could get hurt!)

Being that the Walker was the most powerful revolver till the 357 Mag, it shouldn't take much to reach magnum levels. (which seems proof enough to me - as if the concept and design hasn't already been proven)

Now your moving the goal posts. The original contention is that open frame design is just as structurally strong as closed and I maintain that it isn't and never will be. 30K magnum pressure is enough to prove the point even though their is much higher pressure revolver cartridges available, always chambered in close frame designs, never open frame.
There would be open frame magnum cartridge revolvers sold if the design could handle the added stress !
It's difficult to believe there is still that much ignorance floating around in folks that should know better!
I guess were at an impasse and shooters can believe what they wish !

 

[Dude]

Now your moving the goal posts. The original contention is that open frame design is just as strong as closed and I maintain that it isn't and never will be. 30K magnum pressure is enough to prove the point even though their is much higher revolver pressure cartridges always chambered in close frame designs, never open frame.

How am I moving the goal posts?

I'm saying this little league team is heads and shoulders above the rest of the league.
You say - but they're not up to big league standards and playing on a smaller field, so they're not anything special.

I say my little 1/2 ton Toyota will carry a ton.
You say, big deal. Semis can carry 30 tons.

45D knocked the ball out of the park, but that's not good enough. A Bazooka can shoot many times farther.

See what I mean? It looks like you're the one moving the goal posts.

Racing is kept in classes to keep comparable cars in competition. If you get a big winner in a lower class, it's a win. You don't say "but he'd never make it in Formula 1".

Let's be logical here and give 45D his due. He's proven that open tops are considerably stronger than anyone thought. Why boo him out of the arena because he only slayed the tiger, that wasn't a dragon?

And what will it prove when 45D slays Goliath? Will the goal post be moved out again?

 

[M. De Land]

How am I moving the goal posts?

I'm saying this little league team is heads and shoulders above the rest of the league.
You say - but they're not up to big league standards and playing on a smaller field, so they're not anything special.

I say my little 1/2 ton Toyota will carry a ton.
You say, big deal. Semis can carry 30 tons.

45D knocked the ball out of the park, but that's not good enough. A Bazooka can shoot many times farther.

See what I mean? It looks like you're the one moving the goal posts.

Racing is kept in classes to keep comparable cars in competition. If you get a big winner in a lower class, it's a win. You don't say "but he'd never make it in Formula 1".

Let's be logical here and give 45D his due. He's proven that open tops are considerably stronger than anyone thought. Why boo him out of the arena because he only slayed the tiger, that wasn't a dragon?

And what will it prove when 45D slays Goliath? Will the goal post be moved out again?

The argument is over equal design strength not wither or not plus P loads can be safely fired in open frame guns. Magnum pressure over a 500 round count will prove the claim true or false. No one is booing the experiments with plus P loads. It was simply pointed out that none of the cartridge cylinder makers recommend nor advise shooting plus P loads in their cylinders that I am aware of and that they are not afraid of the cylinder integrity .
The next logical step is to press on into magnum territory and see if open frame design can prevail. That's what was done with the plus P experiments.
I think of Elmer Kieth testing the 44 special loads with SAA's. Some of them did come apart though.

 

[Dickydalton]

The argument is over equal design strength not wither or not plus P loads can be safely fired in open frame guns. Magnum pressure over a 500 round count will prove the claim true or false. No one is booing the experiments with plus P loads. It was simply pointed out that none of the cartridge cylinder makers recommend nor advise shooting plus P loads in their cylinders that I am aware of and that they are not afraid of the cylinder integrity .
The next logical step is to press on into magnum territory and see if open frame design can prevail. That's what was done with the plus P experiments.
I think of Elmer Kieth testing the 44 special loads with SAA's. Some of them did come apart though.

You bring this up as a distraction to your original attacks. Face it palio, you are full of it and it has been proven. Take a nap.

 

[M. De Land]

sorry Mike.

You bring this up as a distraction to your original attacks. Face it palio, you are full of it and it has been proven. Take a nap.

It's an opposing view that happens to be true, not an attack . It's sad you cannot except that.

 

[French Colonial]

When someone loads up .45LC loads using a 250 grain Hornady over 26 grains of H110 (My standard hunting load) in an open top and fires off 500 rounds I will become a believer.

A Ruger Blackhawk can and does.

 

[Bad Karma]

This thinking is patently absurd and provably false ! Open frame design will never be able to handle thrust pressure as efficiently as closed frame design ! If it were superior or even equivalent then open frame Magnum level revolvers would be produced…

Not necessarily Mike, in my mind the most obvious reason open tops have never made the leap to magnum calibers is that lack of a handy dandy spot for the rear sight. I would love to own a magnum chambered 1860 and it may well be possible to build one but we’ll probably never see it because there’s really no market for it other than a few oddball gun cranks.

 

[45D]

When someone loads up .45LC loads using a 250 grain Hornady over 26 grains of H110 (My standard hunting load) in an open top and fires off 500 rounds I will become a believer.

A Ruger Blackhawk can and does.

Same bug as MDL !!

The argument is over equal design strength not wither or not plus P loads can be safely fired in open frame guns. Magnum pressure over a 500 round count will prove the claim true or false. No one is booing the experiments with plus P loads. It was simply pointed out that none of the cartridge cylinder makers recommend nor advise shooting plus P loads in their cylinders that I am aware of and that they are not afraid of the cylinder integrity .
The next logical step is to press on into magnum territory and see if open frame design can prevail. That's what was done with the plus P experiments.

Actually, the "argument" is the fact that even among top strap revolvers there isn't "equality"!! MDL and FC seem to think that 30,000 psi is THE acceptable "proof" that the Open-top design can "equal" and even "best" the top strap design.
For those of you that don't know by now, the Colt SAA (smokeless era), the New Frontier, orig. Great Western Arms Frontier, Pietta, Great Western 2, Taurus Gaucho and other "like" guns can't handle 30,000 psi ammo. What they all have in common is the fact that they are of the TOP STRAP design.
Now here's where it gets tricky so read slowly . . . this same list of revolvers can't handle 23,000 psi ! That means they aren't safe to shoot with ammo that produces that much pressure. This particular information comes from Mr. Brian Pearce (not me) in an article about 45C +p ammo and what you can safely shoot it in.
Ok, brace yourself - the Dragoon open top platform can handle 45C+p ammo (when correctly setup). The Dragoon is (as already mentioned) an open-top design ( NOT an "open frame" like MDL keeps calling it. It is in fact a completely ENCLOSED platform. "Open frame" sounds like somethings missing . . .).

Getting to the above situation was a progression from me testing the 1860 Army platform using 45acp ammo which I was the first to setup and shoot at a range for Mr. Kirst. We had discussed certain parameters and that led me into the 45acp +p arena to test the limits of my setup of the open-top platform. Needless to say, the first range trip to use the +p's resulted in the problem with my Pietta Frontier (already mentioned in a post above). Of course the '60 has run perfectly for 2000+ rounds.
Notice that my Pietta Frontier is in the above listed revolvers that can't handle the 45C +p (23Kpsi same as 45acp +p) which means my '60 Army can handle ammo that those listed top strap revolvers can't. That in and of itself is all that is needed to justify the claim that the open top platform can handle loads that many top strap revolvers cannot.
Please note again, magnum nor 30,000 psi was never mentioned until certain folks needed that to be the "proof they need". Who knows, the Dragoon platform may get there !! We'll see . . .

Mike