Rust in barrel

[Omahkapi'si]

As others have said, everyone has a cleaning process that they like. When I tried TC#13 it was like rust in a bottle, at least for me. It might act as a surfactant when mixed with water, but I would not leave TC#13 full strength on blued steel.

I’m with the hot water crowd for deep cleaning blackpowder residue. We are on county water here, but use a whole house filter that is supposed to remove chlorine and other nasties. May explain why flash rust, even with hot water, is not a problem.

That is a good point; while the TC13 is quite effective at cleaning off the residue around the lock and nipple area, it WILL take the brown (or blue) off the barrel too. Gotta be careful.

 

[Joemolf]

There's no doubt most firearms last a long time. I have more than one unmentionable that's older than I am, that means they could be 83 or even better. They still work, are cleaned just when used without any rust problem on those or the newer ones including the muzzleloaders. A large difference is where you live and how damp your climate, is to create rust. When I shoot my flintlock I never get visible moisture in the pan from moisture in the air, and I understand some do. I believe if I lived where the moisture content in the air was excessively high, I would build a gun room that had a dehumidifier in it, to make it very dry. I believe you would have only minor problems with the wood from being too dry, but it would solve a lot of rust problems on your firearms. I own some that haven't been shot or cleaned in 40 years.
Squint

I think and will bet BP that unmentionable barrels are a better grade of steel then what we get with our flintlocks. Many with unmentionables us highly corrosive surplus ammo and they don’t rust before your eyes. Just my opinion. Even my Uberties don’t rust using black powder cartridges. It has to be the composition of the barrel they are cheaping out on something.

 

[Joemolf]

We all know what a custom flintlock can go for many I’ll bet and are buying them to pass down. Yeah they still shoot and all but why should the barrel of the rifle rust like a 1974 260Z? It’s the steel. The three different rifle barrel manufacturers I have all rust. That’s disappointing my unmentionables don’t. LOL

 

[SDSmlf]

We all know what a custom flintlock can go for many I’ll bet and are buying them to pass down. Yeah they still shoot and all but why should the barrel of the rifle rust like a 1974 260Z? It’s the steel. The three different rifle barrel manufacturers I have all rust. That’s disappointing my unmentionables don’t. LOL

Interesting observation. I have muzzleloader barrels made by well over half a dozen manufacturers from the 1970s through 2020 or so. The only ones that have rust damage in their bores came into my possession that way. I even have a couple of stainless steel barrels rotted out, with Pyrodex claimed to be only powder used. Also have a number of 19th century guns with pristine bores, and some that are rotted out. Have 20 century MILSURP guns manufactured in numerous countries, some that I shoot in completion, that have shiny bores. Have others that are likely only good for use as tomato stakes. My thought is it all comes down to how well you actually clean the bore, not how well you think you clean it. I was taught by guys in the the 1960s and 1970s, many shooting originals, to use plenty of hot water. For me at least, method works with old, new and in between age barrels. If your method works, great. If you have rust or rust damage in a bore, it’s because of inadequate cleaning.

 

[Joemolf]

Interesting observation. I have muzzleloader barrels made by well over half a dozen manufacturers from the 1970s through 2020 or so. The only ones that have rust damage in their bores came into my possession that way. I even have a couple of stainless steel barrels rotted out, with Pyrodex claimed to be only powder used. Also have a number of 19th century guns with pristine bores, and some that are rotted out. Have 20 century MILSURP guns manufactured in numerous countries, some that I shoot in completion, that have shiny bores. Have others that are likely only good for use as tomato stakes. My thought is it all comes down to how well you actually clean the bore, not how well you think you clean it. I was taught by guys in the the 1960s and 1970s, many shooting originals, to use plenty of hot water. For me at least, method works with old, new and in between age barrels. If your method works, great. If you have rust or rust damage in a bore, it’s because of inadequate cleaning.

If you’re shooting them in competition and are true surplus rifles like so many and my match grade m1 Gerand have been rebarreled! I have rifles from the 40s that have origial barres muzzle wear is noticed but no rust and they are not stored in cosmoline. Like I said I’ll bet BP inferior steel or softer lower quality steel is being used. We need a guy to chime in that has Metallurgy degree. I disagree! You can scrub and clean cheap metal etch and seal it and it will still rust! I use the old 240 and 260z cars made from recycled beer cans LOLthen there’s my neglected pendersoli Brown Bess sure if left not wiped internally and externally with something it will have a slight rust after weeks but nothing in comparison to the rifle barrels I have. I’m sure it’s a better grade of steel.

 

[Joemolf]

Mainly curious. I do most of the time because that’s what I wash dishes with and it’s there.
I worked my whole life in aircraft maintenance for the military and corrosion control was not taken lightly. Only cleaning supplies that were on the (QPL) Qualified Product Listing were to be used as they we tested against producing corrosion and damage after the fact. So just some food for thought.

Like cleaning all the cosmoline off the tooling fixtures with naphtha at SM-ALC and I’m talking tooling not in the desert. Aircraft do require very careful handling to prevent corrosion.

 

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Do you mind sharing the tests?

Been too long since I saw the test to remember but HONEST I did, really. I do remember today is Saturday and not Sunday.
Maybe something about metal protection on Accurateshooters.com?

 

[deerstalkert]

maybe using bore butter to "season" our barrels has merit?

 

[SDSmlf]

If you’re shooting them in competition and are true surplus rifles like so many and my match grade m1 Gerand have been rebarreled! I have rifles from the 40s that have origial barres muzzle wear is noticed but no rust and they are not stored in cosmoline. Like I said I’ll bet BP inferior steel or softer lower quality steel is being used. We need a guy to chime in that has Metallurgy degree. I disagree! You can scrub and clean cheap metal etch and seal it and it will still rust! I use the old 240 and 260z cars made from recycled beer cans LOLthen there’s my neglected pendersoli Brown Bess sure if left not wiped internally and externally with something it will have a slight rust after weeks but nothing in comparison to the rifle barrels I have. I’m sure it’s a better grade of steel.

The oldest MILSURP guns that I shoot in competition that have original barrels have barrels stamped as made in 1917, but that is not a topic for this forum.

Back to contemporary muzzleloaders, curious as to what guns/barrels I should put on a corrosion watch list? I have ‘modern’ reproduction muzzleloaders dating from the early 1970s to today. Is it by date or manufacture that I should be concerned? Or by manufacture? If i recall correctly, I have guns with barrels made by CVA, Thompson Center, Traditions, Mendi (just shot off a blunderbuss model for the New Year for the young at heart), Rice, Collerin, Getz, Green Mountain, Investarms/Lyman, Uberti, Pietta, Pedersoli, among others. Not all get shot on a regular basis, but all get to stretch their legs and get shot and cleaned annually. Even with a borescope have not noted any corrosion.

 

[Patched]

This is a lot simpler than it appears…
The ”oxidizing“ agent (the oxygen for the burn) in black powder and substitutes is potassium nitrate (KNO3) or some similar SALT.
Most versions of SALTs attract water/moisture (H2O)…
That’s a lot of Os as in oxygen available to create iron oxide (rust) especially when compounded with oxygen in the air.

Our task, as gun owners, is to keep the oxygen and the iron in the barrel steel contacting each other for as little time as possible, only while shooting if possible.

Nothing “neutralizes” the SALT, it must be removed because it is most of the oxygen causing rust. Covering it with oils, grease or wax only keeps airborne oxygen from adding to the rusting.

Only water, glycol, ethanol, alcohol can dissolve the SALT coupled with scrub agitation and constant flushing (hot solution helps) Steam cleaning would be the best.
Once you have clean unsalted steel, then oil, grease, wax to taste to keep the airborne oxygen off the steel.
(Oh and Barrel “seasoners”….give it up)

 

[Okie Hog]

Contrary to the opinions expressed by posters on this board and other boards, it's quite possible to properly clean and lube a muzzle loader without using steam, boiling water, Ballistol and Dawn dish soap. My rifles never rust despite the fact that i use none of that stuff.

 

[Britsmoothy]

This is a lot simpler than it appears…
The ”oxidizing“ agent (the oxygen for the burn) in black powder and substitutes is potassium nitrate (KNO3) or some similar SALT.
Most versions of SALTs attract water/moisture (H2O)…
That’s a lot of Os as in oxygen available to create iron oxide (rust) especially when compounded with oxygen in the air.

Our task, as gun owners, is to keep the oxygen and the iron in the barrel steel contacting each other for as little time as possible, only while shooting if possible.

Nothing “neutralizes” the SALT, it must be removed because it is most of the oxygen causing rust. Covering it with oils, grease or wax only keeps airborne oxygen from adding to the rusting.

Only water, glycol, ethanol, alcohol can dissolve the SALT coupled with scrub agitation and constant flushing (hot solution helps) Steam cleaning would be the best.
Once you have clean unsalted steel, then oil, grease, wax to taste to keep the airborne oxygen off the steel.
(Oh and Barrel “seasoners”….give it up)

You are spot on. However there is the fact that animal and veg oils or fats do absorb salts and thus can hold it in suspension and thus offer some form of barrier between iron and the corrosive elements.
Some call it seasoning, some think that is something to mock, whatever.
However, my tests have revealed to me that if I use animal and vegetable oils and fats during shooting I can return home and leave a gun fouled for days and suffer no ill effects what so ever.
Have done so for decades. None of my unplated barrels have ever suffered harm.
But when I do clean I use the universal detergent as Sam Fadala called it and hot too.

 

[Joemolf]

This is a lot simpler than it appears…
The ”oxidizing“ agent (the oxygen for the burn) in black powder and substitutes is potassium nitrate (KNO3) or some similar SALT.
Most versions of SALTs attract water/moisture (H2O)…
That’s a lot of Os as in oxygen available to create iron oxide (rust) especially when compounded with oxygen in the air.

Our task, as gun owners, is to keep the oxygen and the iron in the barrel steel contacting each other for as little time as possible, only while shooting if possible.

Nothing “neutralizes” the SALT, it must be removed because it is most of the oxygen causing rust. Covering it with oils, grease or wax only keeps airborne oxygen from adding to the rusting.

Only water, glycol, ethanol, alcohol can dissolve the SALT coupled with scrub agitation and constant flushing (hot solution helps) Steam cleaning would be the best.
Once you have clean unsalted steel, then oil, grease, wax to taste to keep the airborne oxygen off the steel.
(Oh and Barrel “seasoners”….give it up)

Ever hear of a product called Salt Away that is if Salt is even the problem. I am not discounting your comment I just brought a 1873 Ubertie home yesterday after being in hiding at my fathers house for last 6 months. I shoot booth whatever I loaded at the time; BP or Smokeless. I simply put it away clean action lightly oiled using balastol. Not a spec of rust. So as I’m sitting here writing this it becomes obvious to me. If the Ubertie 1873 was a real 1873 made in 1873 then today’s off the shelf ammo would probably probably be dangerous pressure wise. I have recently read on the NRA website site that after numerous incidents using modern day ammunition. NRA and industry got together with industry agreeing not to produce 44-40 higher power loads so cowboy loads are most prevalent. The key I realize is my 1873 has a modern day barrel able to withstand the higher pressure of smokeless. Not so with all my Flintlock barrels. They’d blow to kingdom come if smokeless was used. Every type of steel is prone to rust unless protected granted; modern barrels are less prone obviously due to composition. I’d pay the more money it would cost to have a better barrel. The BP bet still stands

 

[Britsmoothy]

Ever hear of a product called Salt Away that is if Salt is even the problem. I am not discounting your comment I just brought a 1873 Ubertie home yesterday after being in hiding at my fathers house for last 6 months. I shoot booth whatever I loaded at the time; BP or Smokeless. I simply put it away clean action lightly oiled using balastol. Not a spec of rust. So as I’m sitting here writing this it becomes obvious to me. If the Ubertie 1873 was a real 1873 made in 1873 then today’s off the shelf ammo would probably probably be dangerous pressure wise. I have recently read on the NRA website site that after numerous incidents using modern day ammunition. NRA and industry got together with industry agreeing not to produce 44-40 higher power loads so cowboy loads are most prevalent. The key I realize is my 1873 has a modern day barrel able to withstand the higher pressure of smokeless. Not so with all my Flintlock barrels. They’d blow to kingdom come if smokeless was used. Every type of steel is prone to rust unless protected granted; modern barrels are less prone obviously due to composition. I’d pay the more money it would cost to have a better barrel. The BP bet still stands

Via the bullets lube coating the bore in an 1873 the barrel is by default seasoned, or a barrier is formed.
Early 44/40 ammunition using black powder used animal fats as bullet lube. Perfect.

 

[Kansas Kid]

It’s something we will never agree on because there are too many variables such as.

Water quality is probably the biggest variable, especially when using city and rural water supplies with the many additives. Distilled water would probably be the best.

Soap/cleaning agent ranks high on the list also. While Dawn is a good soap and cleans well I do believe it may aid the corrosion process.

Climate/Physical location is also a biggie. That’s why the Air Force doesn’t mothball it’s airplanes in the southeast part of America. So what is good for one guy may not work as well for another.

Steel composition plays maybe a smaller part with probably some barrels having nickel and or chromium in the alloy.

Lubricant used during and after is probably not really too important in my mind.

It’s all gonna boil down to giving it a good cleaning / drying it well and perform follow up patches and inspections.

Never let the sun set on a dirty gun.

 

[Art Caputo]

I have always been pretty meticulous about checking my muzzleloaders, both rifled snd smooth for any rust, corrosion, salt deposits, or carbon build-up using a bore-scope as well as swabbing. I haven’t observed any of the aforementioned maladies for decades since using the MAP solution/method, followed by a good rust preventative. It’s fast, easy, and relatively inexpensive. I have observed no adverse effects, with my barrel interiors continuing to look “as new”.
A somewhat controversial solution, and not period correct, but IMO, an effective method.

 

[Newtire]

He ain’t lying. I’ve used this method and it works for me.

Unless I was taught wrong ? "You can't make nor destroy matter".

I think it was that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Our old buddy Einstein is credited with saying that. Some other guy named Antoine Lavasoisier (sp.) said something about "mass" can't be destroyed but can be changed.

 

[Newtire]

Never let the sun set on a dirty gun.

I really like this one.

 

[FishDFly]

That is the way I was brought up and still do it today.

 

[FishDFly]

I went and checked 2 ML rifles that have been in storage since 1975. Both were very cheap kits put together when I was in the service. Both were put up with a heavy dose of RIG. Neither had any rust in them. They did have some mold and mildew on the stocks.

A good testament on RIG.