Safe load

[2thdoc]

I've been shooting 55gr of 3f in my 40 inch long 45cal 13/16 Green Mountain barreled rifle. I've been thinking for deer hunting I might want to increase the charge a bit if accuracy isn't affected. Does anyone know what the maximum safe load is for a barrel such as mine?
Also, I've heard that one way to see if you've got a fast flintlock ignition is to fire the rifle up side down and see if she goes off. Haven't tried that yet but think I will to see what happens. Watched A buddy of mine try it with his and it went off just like it was being held normally.

 

[Stumpkiller]

The only way to know what the maximum safe load for a particular gun is is to load it with gradually heavier charges until the barrel explodes when fired, and then back off about 10%. ::

Seriously, with that barrel - assuming it is in good repair and maintained properly (i.e. the breech pulg isn't a rusty, corroded mess, it hasn't been fired with airspace between the ball and the charge in the past, the sight dovetail and staple mounting dovetails weren't milled too deep, etc.) - you could put 90 gr of FFFg powder in repeatedly, but why risk it?. It would certainly not be your most accurate load. I would work towards something in the 65 to 70 gr range (start at your 55 gr and add 5gr at a time).


Here's a response from Dixie Gun Works to the general question.

What is the maximum load of black powder for my muzzleloader?

The short answer is to adhere to the manufacturer's recommendation for maximum load for your particular muzzleloader. However, this information is not always readily available. From a practical standpoint this becomes a moot question. Increasing the powder charge to near maximum levels will lead to diminishing returns on the efficiency of the load, as you will experience significant increases in pressure with only marginal gains in velocity with an adverse effect on accuracy. As a general rule, a good target load can be established by starting with a grain weight charge equal to rifle's caliber ( eg 50 grains of FFG for a 50 caliber rifle). To find an efficient hunting charge, increase the charge in 5 grain increments to the point where accuracy is acceptable for your hunting situation. Generally, this should be limited to 30 percent greater than the most efficient target load.


Shooting the flintlock upside down, beside being hard to sight the target, just shows that the frizzen holds the powder in the pan until the sparks strike the charge. It might actually be FASTER than right side up, because explosions will still travel up, away from the earth, and the bulk of the powder is out of the way of the flash. A flintlock pan charge should not fire like a fuse. It should flash instantly into the vent. 3 or 4 grains of powder is a good prime and more can slow the ignition down (and hold the frizzen open a crack so moisture can find it's way in easier).

 

[roundball]

TC's Seneca and Cherokee barrels are 13/16" and TC's manual list load data for them...I'll check tonight when I get home and post that load data if you haven't already received something similar

 

[2thdoc]

Stump, I think instead of your first suggestion, I'll just start with a barrel full of powder and work backwords. ::

What you say about the upside down thing makes sense.

Don't think I'll try 90gr. 65 or so should be plenty. Actually I'm sure 55gr would be adequate to 50-75 yds.

 

[Griz]

I read in a Blackpowder guide book once that if you are using 2FF at 80 Gr. to get the same load by going to 3FFF you should cut it by 1/3 which would be @56 Gr.. I've never used 3FFF in any thing except my .32 Cal. at 25 Gr.. I believe the 3FFF has a greater pressure due to it's finer granulation. How ever, I could be wrong.

 

[doverdog]

If you do try the upsidedown ignition test, pay particular attention where your touch hole is pointed. Ask me how I know. :shocking:

 

[connerm]

Superflint, I'll bite. How do you know? Burn the inside of your left arm?

Speaking of delayed ignition. I kinda like it. One more thing that differentiates it from the excrutiating boredom and predictability that is centerfire shooting.

RE: upping the load for hunting. I don't get better penetration or accuracy, I just get lower on powder and my arm gets kinda shakey after the shot.

.54 round ball, 65gr fff in my 1803

 

Stumpkiller is spot-on with his suggestion. Choose a patch/ball combo that's easy to load, use the same lube you'll be using when hunting and work up to good accuracy in the 60 to 80gr. range. If you lose accruacy before achieving a load you'd be comfortable with. try a different patch material or thickness or lube.
: You didn't say what length your barrel was, which does make some difference in vel. - about up to 10gr. worth against a short barrel. In the long barrels, I'd be quite happy with anyting from 65 to 75gr. Your barrel will certainly handle this provided the screw-holes, if any, and dovetails, if any, aren't too deep. I have seen too many 13/16" TC barrels rung at screwholes and dovetails to advise more than 60gr. 3F for those WITH RB only. The problem with those came from shooting slugs, MaxiBalls etc, with 80gr. of powder, 3F as well as 2F. The (early gun) dovetails and screw holes were/are just too deep, not leaving enough steel between their bottoms and the bore.

 

[Richard Allen]

My 42" Green Mountain 45 caliber barrel ain't a flinter but if you're interested, my 100 yard load for that rifle is 72.5 gr. of Goex fffg., a .009 denim patch (compressed thichkess) with 7:1 Dutch Schoultz recipe lube, and a .451 ball. No nice easy thumb starting with this one. Starts with a good hard whack on the short starter and hits whatever the sights are on when I trip the tricker.

For 25 and 50 yards I reduce the powder to 65 grains. Persinkerty will always do her part, I'm the variable in the equation.

Richard/GA.

Richard/Ga.

 

That IS tight. Years ago, I read that many of the older shooters at Friendship used such tight recipies in the bench or 50yd. buffalo competition, such as .500 or larger dia. balls in their .50's. In a 'normal' rifle barrel such as the Green Mountian barrel, I've not tried such combinations, "YET". I certainly will, at some time, for certain, and perhaps sooner than not.
Daryl

 

[roundball]

TC's .45cal round ball load data for the 13/16" Seneca & Cherokee barrels, using FFg is listed as:

GrnsFFg.....MV.....ME
50grns.....1584....708
60grns.....1701....816
70grns.....1800....914
80grns.....1904...1022
90grns.....1980...1106

 

[Zonie]

IMO if your shooting a round ball, you should be able to safely shoot up to a 80 grain FFFg load without even thinking about safety.
If your shooting a maxi-ball or some other heavy slug the 80 grains of FFFg might be pushing the limits just a little.
With these heavy slugs, switching to FFg might be in order but then, it will create more fouling.

As for a Flintlock firing upside down the only thing that might be useful for goes like this:

1. Your on a high bluff or cliff
2. You fall over the edge head first.
3. You see a 12 point trophy buck on your decent.
4. You raise (lower?) the rifle and fire hitting the buck thru the heart.
5. You survive the fall.

My method of determining if it is a good flintlock is it has less than 3 % mis-fires or hang fires (that's 3 per hundred) , and it doesn't eat flints like their popcorn.
A fast flintlock will fire before you can see the flash from the pan. Primed right with good powder they will do just that. ::

I should have also said, if your shooting Swiss or 777 powder you might want to back down the load about 10 %. These powders have more power/pressure than the others.

 

[roundball]

I agree...using .440's, .018" lubed pillow ticking, Goex FFFg, and .45cal 15/16" TC barrels, my loads are:
60grns targets and 90grns hunting...patches and accuracy are outstanding

 

[JerryToth]

If you email Green Mountain and tell them exactly what barrel you have and in what caliber, they will respond and tell you their recommended MAX load.

They did for me!

And, the "most accurate load", which is what you really should be looking for, is almost never at MAX.

Regards,

Jerry.

 

but it's often close.....I shot 70 grs. of FFFg in 45's for years......always was a good load for hunting and was pretty darn good for match work if you didn't mind feeding and cleaning it!!!!

I'm of the school of opitimum loads for hunting. All the power I can get and still maintain satisfactory accuracy at 100 yards, which translates to less than 4" groups with open sights. Not off a bench rest but a rest of some kind, usually a handy tree to lean on or over the hood of my pick-up or tractor. Both my 54's shoot 100 grs. of FFg at or below that level.

As others have alluded to, work your load up in 5 gr. increments and see where it shoots best. Also, as others have said, that is the best place to be, no matter the caliber.

Vic

 

The rifling twist & depth will determine how well the rifle shoots with large charges of powder. Even though my .69 had a fairly fast twist of 66", it shot as well with 200gr. 2F as it did with 120gr. Keep in mind, this sized bore developes much LOWER pressure than smaller bore sizes. With that rifle, it continued to shoot small groups even with these great charges. This is also the way of the even slower twists of Forsyth's recommendations, from 96 to 144".
: With the .69 Green River barrel I had, it's .012" rifling depth was quite shallow in ratio to the bore size. It would be around the same ratio as a 4 to 5 thou deep rifling in a .45 or .50. From 65gr. on up, the more powder, the better it shot. A patch-change to thicker patch was necessary around 96 gr. of 2F due to gas cutting the thin patch. A change in crown might have aleviated that, but with the great accuracy and power I was already getting, I was quite happy with the combination.

 

[2thdoc]

Shot my rifle over the weekend using 65gr of 3F Swiss. Pretty nice load; retrieved patches looked good. Was able to consistently break clay pigeons at 60yds while shooting sitting in a lawn chair. Had been cleaning barrel with TC bp cleaner followed by dry patches then patches with Gunk super oil; rust was not a problem. Last time I cleaned I used a concoction I mixed up consisting of Murphy's oil soap, alcohol, peroxide, and Band-Ade water soluble sawing oil followed by dry then oiled patches. When I ran a dry patch down the barrel prior to shooting this last time I was shocked at the amount of rust that came out on the patch. Believe I'll go back To the TC stuff or maybe leave the peroxide out of my home made stuff. I clean the barrel with wet patches till they come out clean, followed by dry patches, then oiled patches.

 

[Rebel]

cleaner would be fine if you leave out the peroxide. I have heard that the peroxide has a tendency to cause rusting. Can't remember why though. This gettin' old ain't all it's cracked up to be, but i guess it beats the alternative. :: Seems the CRS syndrome gets worse daily. :curse:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Hydrogen Peroxide (and Clorox) are both oxidizers. Lots of free oxygen atoms bopping around. Great for killing anerobic bacteria but they have no place in a gun barrel. When you add oxygen to iron you get rust. I have always wondered where peroxide found it's way into the cleaning ritual. I suspect some fella ran out of alcohol and grabbed the next thing in the medicine cabinet. Clorox will even depassify stainless (aka "kill" it) and it will then pit and rust like any carbon steel. LOTS better things out there to remove fouling and cut old oil. After all, hydrogen peroxide is just water with a little extra oxygen. Water works just as well and is less likely to harm the barrel.

 

[Ohio Joe]

I haven't experienced a problem with the solution of, alcohol, peroxide, and murphy's oil soap... However, I also add an equal part of water from my outside hydrant that does not go through the water softner... I make sure I get my bore dry with patches then lube with sheath oil... I just checked a rifle this morning that I used last week and cleaned with this solution and the patch came out clean... No rust traces whatsoever... I don't think that a person needs to use the peroxide. They could just replace that with alcohol and water and I'm sure it would clean just as well and leave no rust provided the bore was dry before oiling...