Sales of Firearms and Ammo at Flea Market

[Juice Jaws]

That is outrageous. It is like suing the bag boy who bagged your groceries because the meat was tainted. Any sane judge would dismiss such a case. We all know the liberal judges and liberal attorneys will jump on the chance to sue somebody.

The problem is we are fast running out of sane judges

 

[maillemaker]

Federal Appeals court just struck this down as unconstitutional

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/federal-judge-blocks-atf-rule-expanding-definition-gun-dealer

Hooray!

 

[maillemaker]

This is great news. And again it brings up something I mentioned before.

The ATF is trying to make it so that you have to have an FFL license to personally sell guns. They narrowed down the definition such that pretty much anyone could be accused of selling a gun "to make a profit". Or that you were "in business".

But we went through this in the 1990s. Back then, everyone was out to go get an FFL because it was the easiest way to buy and sell guns. Become an FFL, and you could buy and sell through the mail, easy peasy. Oh, but we couldn't have that, so they made it a lot harder to get an FFL, to get rid of "kitchen table gun dealers". Now if you want to be an FFL you have to have a physical place of business, and that can't run afoul of any zoning laws or HOA rules.

So what is a private citizen to do if they want to sell their guns profitably and don't live in a place where they could even GET an FFL?

Glad to see this ruling shot down.

 

[user 57851]

This administration is hell-bent on figuring out how to make it as hard as possible for individuals to sell firearms. They are trying to get around the government being unable to interfere with intra-state firearm sales while still hampering the ability of an individual to sell a firearm to another individual without going through an FFL.

They are doing this by cranking down on what constitutes "being in business" selling firearms:

https://www.atf.gov/news/press-rele...e-definition-engaged-business-firearms-dealer

"“Under this regulation, it will not matter if guns are sold on the internet, at a gun show, or at a brick-and-mortar store: if you sell guns predominantly to earn a profit, you must be licensed, and you must conduct background checks,” said Attorney General Merrick B. Garland. “This regulation is a historic step in the Justice Department’s fight against gun violence. It will save lives.”"

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regul...rule2022r-17f-questionsandanswerspdf/download

The end objective here is universal background checks.

And I agree, I'd rather have NICS open to the public and eliminate the FFL middle man. Anyone should be able to go to the NICS website, enter their identifying information, and receive a one-time-use code you can then give to anyone (dealer or individual), and they can enter that code into the NICs web site with your identifying information and receive a simple YES or NO SALE result. This service should be free to use, or a very modest fee ($5 or less).

This will have the result of making local dealers have to compete against online sales, so expect the gun industry to be against it. Dealers love sales going through NICS because it adds an arbitrary fee to the sale making most mail-order transfers for commodity guns not worth it.

That makes toooo much sense for our backwards government.

 

[BlackRock52]

Nah, this one is all on Cabela's.

Here is the short version of the story: A few years ago, a convicted felon bought a percussion black powder revolver from Cabela's. Felon then used it to murder someone. Cabela's was sued for selling it to the felon. Even though by federal law they were not required to perform any kind of background check on people buying percussion black powder revolvers, evidently the case brought was that it was an illegal sale in Ohio. The gist of the available text is that somehow the felon revealed that he was a felon but the Cabela's employee sold to him anyway.

https://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=92189&start=15

https://cooperelliott.com/cooper-el...ping-policy-changes-for-a-major-gun-retailer/

In response, Cabela's stopped shipping muzzleloading/percussion arms in the mail to your doorstep. In addition, you have to go to the store and fill out a "fake 4473". It is like the 4473, but has no government use or standing. It's just a CYA form for Cabela's.

Cabela's could have continued to ship mail order and just have an online form or checkbox you filled out just like their fake 4473.

But, they caved and decided to stop mail order delivery of black powder firearms.

There are many vendors that will ship to your doorstep no problem.

And that's why "Old South Firearms" will not ship BP firearms to Ohio unless to a licensee(FFL). It's not illegal but they state they do not have resources to take on that kind of lawsuit.

 

[BlackRock52]

You cannot use that to be a ''dealer'' what ever that means to idiots running FATF.

Not like an FFL. There newest missive sounds like anyone selling a firearm af any kind and makes some/any profit needs to have a license --unless it is to enhance/build a private collection. It has nothing to do with number of guns. It is so vague that BATFE has created a "Q & A" site so one can determine if they should have a license of some type. Even after reading thru the entire site it is still unclear to me. It was explained to me by BATFE that if you have 400 guns and want to sell some since you don't use them, need some money for whatever(not guns) then that is ok. But if you acquired a firearm for $100 and now sell it for $250, you have made a profit and need a license. (How is that different?) If that firearm is greater than 50 years old it is an antique and you still need a license but a "C & A" license will suffice and is much easier to get. I think it is intentionally vague such that they can charge you if they want...
Congress needs to take back control so government agencies (unelected bureaucrats) cannot issue "Administrative Rules" that have the power/force of laws...

 

[BlackRock52]

This is great news. And again it brings up something I mentioned before.

The ATF is trying to make it so that you have to have an FFL license to personally sell guns. They narrowed down the definition such that pretty much anyone could be accused of selling a gun "to make a profit". Or that you were "in business".

But we went through this in the 1990s. Back then, everyone was out to go get an FFL because it was the easiest way to buy and sell guns. Become an FFL, and you could buy and sell through the mail, easy peasy. Oh, but we couldn't have that, so they made it a lot harder to get an FFL, to get rid of "kitchen table gun dealers". Now if you want to be an FFL you have to have a physical place of business, and that can't run afoul of any zoning laws or HOA rules.

So what is a private citizen to do if they want to sell their guns profitably and don't live in a place where they could even GET an FFL?

Glad to see this ruling shot down.

The physical place of business has always been the case and it can be your "kitchen table". You do not need a brick n mortar location. You can get an FFL for if you are in an apartment if your landlord allows. There are 2 of those here in town.
Biggest difference now from then is that you "must attempt to make a profit..."
If your town/city requires a permit for a "Home Based Business" (like here) the BATFE will confirm you have one before your interview.
Surprisingly perhaps, majority of FFL holders are "Home Based". Biggest hindrance is most wholesalers will not sell to a home based business. They demand a store front and will require sq ft plus photos of your storefront before granting an account. Seems counterproductive to total sales

 

[maillemaker]

The physical place of business has always been the case and it can be your "kitchen table". You do not need a brick n mortar location. You can get an FFL for if you are in an apartment if your landlord allows. There are 2 of those here in town.
Biggest difference now from then is that you "must attempt to make a profit..."
If your town/city requires a permit for a "Home Based Business" (like here) the BATFE will confirm you have one before your interview.
Surprisingly perhaps, majority of FFL holders are "Home Based". Biggest hindrance is most wholesalers will not sell to a home based business. They demand a store front and will require sq ft plus photos of your storefront before granting an account. Seems counterproductive to total sales

It's been years since I looked into getting an FFL. Probably 20. But as I recall, you had to abide by local zoning restrictions, and that is what I would have had a problem with. You have to have a physical location and you had to have "office hours" where they could come inspect you. I gave up because I didn't think they would let me have such a business in the middle of a subdivision.

 

[Blitz]

Sad but true. Might as well sue automakers for car accidents, and forks for making people fat.

Hemember Ford and the Firestone tires ?

 

[snakebit]

Hemember Ford and the Firestone tires ?

There is faulty. Then there is abuse/misuse. Either way, some ambulance chaser is waiting.