A friend and I went to the Tulsa gun show yesterday and it was one of the rare times that I wasn't searching for any special item. Being back into muzzleloading I did keep an eye out for any interesting front loader. Did see a number of nice used T/C cap lock guns most all in good shape for less than $200. each. Then I spotted a double barrel o/u muzzleloading shootgun that looked like nos in the original box with all accessories. It was a 12G Beretta and to me looked like it should go home with me. It did. Now my question. Since I've never shot a muzzleloading scatter gun, however I have hand loaded many shotgun shells using the plastic wad and would like to hear from anyone who has ACTUALLY used these wads in a muzzleloader. Thanks in advance. :wink:
-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Saturday was good here in the Ozarks
- Thread starter Sekiar
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Snow on the Roof
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2009
- Messages
- 384
- Reaction score
- 3
I've used plastic shot cups in a 20 gauge fowler for several years. I've learned to cut the plastic cushion off and use a felt cushion wad instead. Other wise I load in the normal manor, filling the shot cup with what ever size shot and load depending on the job and a thin over shot wad on top. I use the plastic cups when I want a tighter pattern such as my turkey loads, which gives me confidence to 30 yards. Using a single piece of scotch tape at the base of the wings on the plastic cup really tightens up the pattern which will extend my shot range + 5 yards or more.
John
John
I owned a beretta o/u blackpowder till my buddy talked me out of it right before I moved to Canada. I should have kept it.
Anyways, you have a great shotgun. My load was 90 gains of BP, overpowder wad, cushion wad, equal volume of shot, topped off with a over shot wad. The over powder and over shot wad were skinny like card stock. Mine worked well on pheasants, prairie chickens, and ducks.
Alberta Al
Anyways, you have a great shotgun. My load was 90 gains of BP, overpowder wad, cushion wad, equal volume of shot, topped off with a over shot wad. The over powder and over shot wad were skinny like card stock. Mine worked well on pheasants, prairie chickens, and ducks.
Alberta Al
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,538
- Reaction score
- 87
YOu can get away using plastic cups with BP IF you first Grease the barrel before loading the cup and shot down it. The grease allows the plastic to slide OVER the metal, rather than rubbing off against it. Ergo, NO plastic residue. :wink:
I use a cleaning patch liberally coated with Young Country 101 Lube, a predecessor to Bore Butter, and Wonderlube, to grease the bore. Its a natural lube made with vegetable oils, and wax. I stumbled on this fact by accident. I had seen and heard of shooters at the Sgt. York Memorial Chunk Gun Shoot, held every March at Pall Mall, Tenn., greasing their bores after loading the PRB down on the powder. When we tried the before and after of greasing the bore in a rifle, we got higher velocities, and lower SDV. Hadn't expect the lower SDV at all. Tried it in several guns to see if it was unique to the one gun tested. Worked in other rifles, and other calibers.
So, one day when my brother and I were shooting a trap match at my club, we decided to try the technique in our smoothbores. I was not using plastic cups, then, but found that the bore became " slicker" ( if that is a word) after every shot, and was easier to clean. So, one day, for clucks and yucks, I greased the bore before putting a plastic cup down the barrel. It eliminated the need to use a bore brush to remove the plastic, with a patch and modern solvents over the brush to dissolve and scrub the bore clean. I was impressed. I was all prepared to spend a good half hour scrubbing that set of barrels with my bore brush and solvents, as I have done before when I used plastic cups during some testing. ( I still have not used them for hunting, yet.) :shocked2: :hmm: :thumbsup:
Oh, just to be clear, I use an OP wad over the powder, but I have not yet cut off the bottom assembly of the modern shot cups, and just pushed the entire cup down the barrel. The OP wad acts as a firewall, and protects the half cup that faces to the rear of the shot cup, from being burned, or melted. I do not rely on that half cup to seal gases. When I tried that years ago, the cup was badly burned. Those shotcups are probably actually 13 gauge, and not a true 12 gauge, so they can't seal gases well behind the skirt, or reverse half cup. I am going to have to hit the pattern boards again, using cut off cups, and then use tape, and index card stock inserts to see if I can control the size of the patterns at 25 yds., and longer ranges.
I use a cleaning patch liberally coated with Young Country 101 Lube, a predecessor to Bore Butter, and Wonderlube, to grease the bore. Its a natural lube made with vegetable oils, and wax. I stumbled on this fact by accident. I had seen and heard of shooters at the Sgt. York Memorial Chunk Gun Shoot, held every March at Pall Mall, Tenn., greasing their bores after loading the PRB down on the powder. When we tried the before and after of greasing the bore in a rifle, we got higher velocities, and lower SDV. Hadn't expect the lower SDV at all. Tried it in several guns to see if it was unique to the one gun tested. Worked in other rifles, and other calibers.
So, one day when my brother and I were shooting a trap match at my club, we decided to try the technique in our smoothbores. I was not using plastic cups, then, but found that the bore became " slicker" ( if that is a word) after every shot, and was easier to clean. So, one day, for clucks and yucks, I greased the bore before putting a plastic cup down the barrel. It eliminated the need to use a bore brush to remove the plastic, with a patch and modern solvents over the brush to dissolve and scrub the bore clean. I was impressed. I was all prepared to spend a good half hour scrubbing that set of barrels with my bore brush and solvents, as I have done before when I used plastic cups during some testing. ( I still have not used them for hunting, yet.) :shocked2: :hmm: :thumbsup:
Oh, just to be clear, I use an OP wad over the powder, but I have not yet cut off the bottom assembly of the modern shot cups, and just pushed the entire cup down the barrel. The OP wad acts as a firewall, and protects the half cup that faces to the rear of the shot cup, from being burned, or melted. I do not rely on that half cup to seal gases. When I tried that years ago, the cup was badly burned. Those shotcups are probably actually 13 gauge, and not a true 12 gauge, so they can't seal gases well behind the skirt, or reverse half cup. I am going to have to hit the pattern boards again, using cut off cups, and then use tape, and index card stock inserts to see if I can control the size of the patterns at 25 yds., and longer ranges.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,538
- Reaction score
- 87
Probably. But when faced with small Daily bag limits, a long trip to get to an area where I can hunt legally, and few shooting opportunities even on a good day, I have to make every shot count. And, lets face it, The patterns I achieve cause heads to shake at the club, and make other shooters are jealous! :rotf:
With my DB shotgun, I took a pheasant out of the air on a going away shot at a paced off 33 yds, using a cylinder bore gun, 75 grains of FFg, and 1 1/4 oz of #5 shot. It smacked the bird down like I hit it with a tennis racket. :shocked2:
The bird had been shot at and missed by a couple of other hunters, and was putting on the coal oil to get away. The folks with me were in shock that my gun was capable of taking the bird at that range, much less knocking it out of the sky with such authority.( That is why one of them paced the distance off from the bird, to me as I reloaded my gun.)
The load used was one used by the Old Commercial Duck hunters on the Illinois River back in the 1870s, and was their favored load for "50 YARD DUCKS". I have always assumed they were shooting sitting ducks on the water in flocks, and not shooting birds flying by them with this load. But, there is no doubt the load has the down range pellet energy to kill birds. :shocked2: :wink: I also don't know, from the reprinted article in The American Rifleman, if these old timers were shooting choked guns. It didn't say. I think I can get modified patterns out to 40 yards in my cylinder bore gun, with shot cups, designed properly, but I have no expectation of getting small enough patterns out at 50 yds, to take flying birds, with lead shot, or with non-toxic shot, shooting a cylinder bore shotgun, no matter what I do. If I stumble on a method of doing this, I will be sure to write about it here. :hmm: :thumbsup:
With my DB shotgun, I took a pheasant out of the air on a going away shot at a paced off 33 yds, using a cylinder bore gun, 75 grains of FFg, and 1 1/4 oz of #5 shot. It smacked the bird down like I hit it with a tennis racket. :shocked2:
The bird had been shot at and missed by a couple of other hunters, and was putting on the coal oil to get away. The folks with me were in shock that my gun was capable of taking the bird at that range, much less knocking it out of the sky with such authority.( That is why one of them paced the distance off from the bird, to me as I reloaded my gun.)
The load used was one used by the Old Commercial Duck hunters on the Illinois River back in the 1870s, and was their favored load for "50 YARD DUCKS". I have always assumed they were shooting sitting ducks on the water in flocks, and not shooting birds flying by them with this load. But, there is no doubt the load has the down range pellet energy to kill birds. :shocked2: :wink: I also don't know, from the reprinted article in The American Rifleman, if these old timers were shooting choked guns. It didn't say. I think I can get modified patterns out to 40 yards in my cylinder bore gun, with shot cups, designed properly, but I have no expectation of getting small enough patterns out at 50 yds, to take flying birds, with lead shot, or with non-toxic shot, shooting a cylinder bore shotgun, no matter what I do. If I stumble on a method of doing this, I will be sure to write about it here. :hmm: :thumbsup:
I had one for a short while.
It shot ball real good and with shot downed some game for me.
The only sad reason I traded it was the previous owner had let it rot in the bores.
I made loading tolerable by honing out the barrels to 11g but the general neglect outside peed me off etc.
If it was not for that I would still have it as it was nice and light and fitted me well.
I would advise replacing the thin ram rod with a carbon arrow. Any one with a lathe will spin the brass ends up etc.
Brits.
It shot ball real good and with shot downed some game for me.
The only sad reason I traded it was the previous owner had let it rot in the bores.
I made loading tolerable by honing out the barrels to 11g but the general neglect outside peed me off etc.
If it was not for that I would still have it as it was nice and light and fitted me well.
I would advise replacing the thin ram rod with a carbon arrow. Any one with a lathe will spin the brass ends up etc.
Brits.
>>With my DB shotgun, I took a pheasant out of the air on a going away shot at a paced off 33 yds, using a cylinder bore gun, 75 grains of FFg, and 1 1/4 oz of #5 shot. It smacked the bird down like I hit it with a tennis racket.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,538
- Reaction score
- 87
Well, this is a case of what I hit them with. A now deceased best friend of mine once killed a pheasant with one pellet in the back of the head at 60 yds. He was shooting #6 shot. No way that bird should have died! :shocked2:
The bird I hit had no hits to the head or neck. I had 3-5 pellet hits to the body.
Back in the Fall of 1969, I went bird hunting with several other law students. I was shooting a single barrel gun with skeet choke, and $6 shot loads. The guy next to me was shooting #5 shot, and the man on his left was shooting #4 shot load. A bird got up in front of me at about 20 yds, and I hit it at 25 yds with my #6 shot. He was dying, when, almost in less than 1/4 second after I shot, he was hit with a Load of #5 from the guy next to me. He began spinning in a backflip, when he was hit with a load of #4 fired by the other guy. They were both violating the zone of fire rules, of course, and those #4 shot pellets, hitting that bird at about 30 yards from the muzzle, tore the bird all up. We made the #4 shot guy take the bird. We had a "discussion " about zones of fire at that point, before we continued the hunt. I think we took just one more bird that morning. That was the last time I hunted with either of those two men. They were both married, so the other guy took the second bird home, so they could have pheasant dinners with their wives. I have since learned how to cook a mean Pheasant Stir Fry, where all the meat is cut up before its cooked. I would not willingly give away a pheasant today that was " All shot up". :hatsoff:
The bird I hit had no hits to the head or neck. I had 3-5 pellet hits to the body.
Back in the Fall of 1969, I went bird hunting with several other law students. I was shooting a single barrel gun with skeet choke, and $6 shot loads. The guy next to me was shooting #5 shot, and the man on his left was shooting #4 shot load. A bird got up in front of me at about 20 yds, and I hit it at 25 yds with my #6 shot. He was dying, when, almost in less than 1/4 second after I shot, he was hit with a Load of #5 from the guy next to me. He began spinning in a backflip, when he was hit with a load of #4 fired by the other guy. They were both violating the zone of fire rules, of course, and those #4 shot pellets, hitting that bird at about 30 yards from the muzzle, tore the bird all up. We made the #4 shot guy take the bird. We had a "discussion " about zones of fire at that point, before we continued the hunt. I think we took just one more bird that morning. That was the last time I hunted with either of those two men. They were both married, so the other guy took the second bird home, so they could have pheasant dinners with their wives. I have since learned how to cook a mean Pheasant Stir Fry, where all the meat is cut up before its cooked. I would not willingly give away a pheasant today that was " All shot up". :hatsoff:
Thanks for all of the good input. I searched through some old reloading supplies I had stored away and found some 12 gauge wads. The hard paper wad measures .735dia and .215 thick. The fiber wad measures .760dia and .380 thick. The barrel(s)measure .725id. All measurements are as close as I can make and may be off some. It looks like both can be pushed dowm the barrel. As a starting point would these do? Say one hard wad over the powder and one fiber wad on top of that. Add the shot and one hard wad over the shot. I could not find any plastic wads and will try that at another time. Also will have to purchase shot before I can load her up. :wink:
As long as they are snug in the bore they should be ok, blocking the gases from the shot column is what you are trying to do.
Sounds like you got the loading down, get some shot and have some fun. I use Cheerios boxes and a homemade punch for my overshot cards.
Sounds like you got the loading down, get some shot and have some fun. I use Cheerios boxes and a homemade punch for my overshot cards.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,538
- Reaction score
- 87
They will do! If you can find a 3/4" punch at Harbor Freight, or some other supplier, you can punch out your own OS cards from cereal boxes, as Griz50 suggests. There are lots of ways to make wads that will do the job.
The important part of all wads are the EDGES. They have to stay intact to seal the gases behind them, and to hold the shot column in place, if you are shooting a DB. Sometimes, the second barrel's shot load will move forward on the recoil of the first barrel firing, so a good OS card in good shape is needed. If you are shooting a single barrel gun, the OS card only has to hold the load of shot in the barrel while you are moving the gun around when you hunt.
I like my loading JAG on my ramrod to be wide enough that I push those wad and card edges firmly against the inside of the barrel when I seat them. If your barrel is choked at the muzzle, the jag has to be small enough to fit through whatever is the tightest choke you have.
In the use of a choked barrel, I use the smaller diameter loading jag, but I tamp the wad down going "around the clock" to make sure I don't have a loose edge at some side of the barrel. It takes me 6 quick taps to make sure the wad or card is fully pressed against the sides of the bore. :thumbsup:
The important part of all wads are the EDGES. They have to stay intact to seal the gases behind them, and to hold the shot column in place, if you are shooting a DB. Sometimes, the second barrel's shot load will move forward on the recoil of the first barrel firing, so a good OS card in good shape is needed. If you are shooting a single barrel gun, the OS card only has to hold the load of shot in the barrel while you are moving the gun around when you hunt.
I like my loading JAG on my ramrod to be wide enough that I push those wad and card edges firmly against the inside of the barrel when I seat them. If your barrel is choked at the muzzle, the jag has to be small enough to fit through whatever is the tightest choke you have.
In the use of a choked barrel, I use the smaller diameter loading jag, but I tamp the wad down going "around the clock" to make sure I don't have a loose edge at some side of the barrel. It takes me 6 quick taps to make sure the wad or card is fully pressed against the sides of the bore. :thumbsup:
I made a cutter from a 6" piece of black iron pipe with a 3/4" id and I filed the OUTSIDE of the pipe to give it a knife edge and maintain the 3/4"ID, then it only takes a hour to punch all the wads you would need for a year! :thumbsup:
I place my cardboard on the end grain of a stump in the yard and use a 2 pound hammer, punch a few and use a stick to push out into a coffee can.
The cereal box overshot cards, I put one in the right (First Barrel) and 2 in the left (Second Barrel) to keep the load from jumping out of place due to the recoil of the first shot, it's still a good idea to check the second barrel when reloading the first just to be sure the load didn't go anywhere. :wink:
I place my cardboard on the end grain of a stump in the yard and use a 2 pound hammer, punch a few and use a stick to push out into a coffee can.
The cereal box overshot cards, I put one in the right (First Barrel) and 2 in the left (Second Barrel) to keep the load from jumping out of place due to the recoil of the first shot, it's still a good idea to check the second barrel when reloading the first just to be sure the load didn't go anywhere. :wink:
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,538
- Reaction score
- 87
I had trouble with the edges of my punch rolling on me when I used a hammer to punch out cardboard wads on a wood stump. Have you experienced that, and if so, how are you dealing with it? The only thing I have found to do is to file and stone a new ege, removing the rolled edge in the process.
I do like the idea of using a key hole drill/cutter, with the teeth ground off to make a cutter than can be used in a drill press, or even in a hand drill, with care. A spinning edge will cut much better than the same edge being pounded through the cloth fabric.
I do like the idea of using a key hole drill/cutter, with the teeth ground off to make a cutter than can be used in a drill press, or even in a hand drill, with care. A spinning edge will cut much better than the same edge being pounded through the cloth fabric.
Another beautiful Saturday here in the Ozarks! Joined some other shooters down the creek at Ozark57 range and got to shoot my double 12. I loaded 1-0z shot with same volume of FFG black and the first two shots broke one clay bird with each bang. I knew that was a good place to stop and try a couple of round balls, which went down range but missed the fixed target. I believe one of the problem was the round balls were not round enough. They were purchased for my Kodiak .72 double rifle and would not work because they were way too far out of round. Any way I could not load with a patch and had to use a wad behind and in front of the ball. A really fun gun! A keeper fur sure.
