Scottish all-metal pistol

[Moloch]

Hello friends of the black powder! :hatsoff:

I am actually a rifleman and I have very limited experience with pistols so I need your help about a scottish all-metal pistol.
I got one for about 120 bucks; couldnt resist so I had to buy it because its a somewhat odd but nice looking piece of muzzleloader. :grin:

This is it, I dont have it right know but I'll get it in a week or so.

Appearently its made in Italy and has a .58 smooth barrel, flintlock and a brass stock without a trigger guard; owner says its still a virgin. :wink:
Fancy looking pistol, but I've heard that they are not decoration only and they shoot quiet well. What would be a good starting load to try in that pistol for 25 yards? What would be a good .58 patch and ball load? Should I rather use 2FG than 3FG cause of the big caliber? What would be a good plinking charge with a little more power than the target loads?

Thanks!

 

[mazo kid]

I've got that exact gun but haven't shot it much as I couldn't hit anything (no sights!) I would start with maybe 15-20 gr of either 2f or 3f black, a .600 RB and thick patch. For a bit more power, I would say 30-35 gr.as it is a rather short barrel. Just my thoughts.

 

[gjkershul]

I would suggest using 20 grains of 3f behind a .570 ball, with a .010 to .015 patch.

 

[Zonie]

Over the years there have been several different Scottish pistols offered to buyers in the U.S.

For instance, Dixie Gunworks offered a Murdock Flintlock Scottish Highlanders pistol in a .52 caliber smoothbore.
This pistol had very curled "horns" on the grips butt.

In the same 1995 catalog a Scottish Black Watch Pistol was offered in .54 caliber.
This pistol looks exactly like the one in the photo above, but hold on:

In the 1987 the similar Scottish Black Watch Pistol was offered with a rifled .577 caliber barrel.

I guess the bottom line is these pistols have been sold in many different calibers so I would advise that before buying any roundballs for your gun you wait until you have it in hand.

The correct ball size will be smaller than the bore size and the patching material thickness should be just enough to firmly hold the rammed ball in place.

Using patch/ball combinitions that create a heavy press fit isn't necessary with these pistols and only tends to make loading them a real PITA.

About 20 grains of either 2Fg or 3Fg will work just fine in the gun although I lean towards the 3Fg because it works better in the pan to prime the gun.

 

[Moloch]

Thanks for the replies guys, I think I've got a rough idea what to load when I have it. Measuring the bore seems the first logical step. :hmm:

Its my first smoothbore, flintlock and metal-stock gun in my collection, and I am pretty happy as it looks very ''fancy''. I thought steel and wood looks nice, but steel and brass looks good too.

I know the accuracy I'll get will be nothing to write home about, but I wont use it as a regular shooting pistol and It will make a nice collectors piece after polishing the heck out of it. Maybe I can scare the smoothbore pistol shooters with it, they only use .33's and .44's with powder charges of around 15 grains, lets see how they react to smoke and thunder of a little .58 pistol. :grin:

About 20 grains of either 2Fg or 3Fg will work just fine in the gun although I lean towards the 3Fg because it works better in the pan to prime the gun.

Hmm, I can use 3FG to prime the pan? I always thought 3FG will work to ignite the powder but doesnt it delay ignition a lot? I am asking because it will be my first flintlock and I always read that 4FG is the way to go.

 

[kevthebassman]

I've used both 4F and 3F to prime my flintlock and can't tell the difference between the two.

 

[Zonie]

The ignition time between 3Fg and 4F powder is so slight that it takes very elaborate equipment to detect it. Use the 3Fg. It will work just fine.

Now all you have to buy is the complete Scottish outfit to go with your new gun.
You can probably leave out the Bag Pipes unless you have a burning desire to drive your wife and the cats in the neighborhood nuts. :grin:

Then again, maybe a nice bottle of Heig & Heig or some other fine Scotch whiskey would be enough in a pinch. :rotf:

 

[Moloch]

Oh the pistol makes me feel so scottish, no I dont have a bagpipe or a kilt, but guns make people! A true scotsman wears a scottish pistol and nothing else, to the hell with the kilt. :thumbsup:

Although I could carry my highlander claymore to my gun club. If I cant hit anything with the pistol I'll go on a rampage and cut out the bullseye in a true scottish way.
Hope I wont end up in a scottish asylum afterwards. :haha:

Use the 3Fg. It will work just fine.

Thats great.
I was looking for swiss 4FG but that stuff seems to be VERY rare, good to know that I can use my 3FG powder too.

I hope the deal was not bad, what is such a pistol worth? I paid 120 bucks for it, I think thats not bad for a good looking unusal pistol if it shoots straight.

 

[mazo kid]

Oh the pistol makes me feel so scottish, no I dont have a bagpipe or a kilt, but guns make people! A true scotsman wears a scottish pistol and nothing else, to the hell with the kilt. :thumbsup:

Although I could carry my highlander claymore to my gun club. If I cant hit anything with the pistol I'll go on a rampage and cut out the bullseye in a true scottish way.
Hope I wont end up in a scottish asylum afterwards. :haha:

Use the 3Fg. It will work just fine.

Thats great.
I was looking for swiss 4FG but that stuff seems to be VERY rare, good to know that I can use my 3FG powder too.

I hope the deal was not bad, what is such a pistol worth? I paid 120 bucks for it, I think thats not bad for a good looking unusal pistol if it shoots straight.

Considering today's prices I think you did OK with your pistol. I've had mine over 30 years so I paid considerably less. And I do have a kilt AND bagpipes AND a Claymore, but have not carried my pistol.

 

[Zonie]

Worth? Hey, it already is worth 9 posts! :rotf:

Well, back in 1980 Dixie wanted $125
In 1987 Dixie wanted $135.
In 1995 Dixie wanted $175.
In 2002 Dixie wanted $189.

If the pistol turns out to be in good condition I would say you got more than $120 worth of pistol for your $120.

 

[Sydney]

The ones I've seen are called Murdoch of Doune pistols. I doubt the regular troops of the 42nd (Black watch) could afford to carry them, officers would have though. As for pipes and kilts.....ummmmm....(not to go to far off topic)
that's me without the bonnet

my band mate (as he's known here as IXOYE)with the horribly distended cheeks.

 

[Zonie]

As I mentioned above Dixie also shows a Murdock Flintlock Scottish Highlanders pistol but that one is much more expensive than the one in this posts photo.
They wanted over $325 for it in 2002/

 

[davidthered]

From privates to officers, the soldiers of the 42d did indeed have the Murdoch pistols. They, along with the basket-hilted broadswords, were provided by the Colonel of the Regt. When the 42d arrived in N.Y. 1776, they found the pistols & swords not really useful, and so stopped carrying them into battle.
Those brass & steel jobbies are not acurate, here is one more accurate, all steel.

Under $300 from Middlesex Village Traders

Here is a Scottish Officer (not of the 42d) with his pistol worn on a shoulder belt;

 

[poordevil]

I was at the Buffalo Bill Musm. In Cody Wy and in the VERY LARGE gun collection they have an original Black Watch pistol and it is the spitting image of the one you are getting. Also at the Phonix AZ gun shows I go to often, someone has had for a long while, that pistol for sell for $350.00!! It is the Dixie .58cal copy. He must really like coz he shure don't want to sell it!!at that price anyway!) :rotf:

P.

 

[Moloch]

I just found it at Dixie, they want 260$ for it. :shocked2: Dixie ''murdoch'' pistol


They recommend a load of 25 grain FFG, but IMO that seems to be a wimpy safety load. 25 FFFG seems to me more ''military'' load.

 

[Many Klatch]

Moloch, I have a pair of smoothbore flintlock pistols one is .62 and the other is .64 caliber. They shoot 35 grains of 3F or 2F very well. My contention is that the smoothbore pistols were probably loaded with buck and ball or just buckshot. I do know that with a .64 ball and 3 or 4 buckshot my .64 bucks a bit but it really moves dirt from the base of a stump at 15 yards.

Many Klatch

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

I have a .69 caliber Charleyville pistol of the same basic construction, brass and steel. I can't hit the braod side of a barn with mine shooting a ball, but it does very well with a .69 caliber paint ball and 12 grains of 3F.
:bow: :bow:

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Also you have to remember before the British trained them, the Highlanders actually threw their
heavy pistols at the enemy after shooting them.
Here is the Jacobite order of battle.

1. Charge the English at a full run screaming at the top of your lungs.

2. Shoot the firelock longgun at 50 yards and throw it down ( still running )

3. at 25 yards draw the pistol, fire and throw it at the English lines

4. The with your targe on your left arm, draw your dirk with your left hand then draw your broadsword with your right hand.

5. deflect as many bayonets as you can with your targe, and slam into the English line hacking and stabbing with your cutlery.

Hell this worked until Culloden!

:thumbsup:

 

[David Teague]

Also you have to remember before the British trained them, the Highlanders actually threw their
heavy pistols at the enemy after shooting them.
Here is the Jacobite order of battle.

1. Charge the English at a full run screaming at the top of your lungs.

2. Shoot the firelock longgun at 50 yards and throw it down ( still running )

3. at 25 yards draw the pistol, fire and throw it at the English lines

4. The with your targe on your left arm, draw your dirk with your left hand then draw your broadsword with your right hand.

5. deflect as many bayonets as you can with your targe, and slam into the English line hacking and stabbing with your cutlery.

Hell this worked until Culloden!

:thumbsup:

Grzrob,

Do you know why it didn't work at Culloden?

I know the answer, it just a test to see if you do. :hmm:

BTW, boys... think 10 yards or less for shooting one of these. They were only meant to be used at very close range for self defense along with the Highland broadsword (Which I teach as a WMA. :hatsoff

Cheers,

DT

 

[temple]

it didn't work because cumberland told all his troops to turn to the right and bayonet/shoot the scot in the ribs as he was swinging the broadsword. while in mid swing you tend to leave your ribs pretty undefended. screw you cumberland...scotland forever.