Scottish pistol

[IronHand]

Picked up one of my bucket list guns. A all metal Scottish pistol. Its 58 cal, brass framed and the lock sparks well. It is a nice reproduction.

I do have a couple of questions that I could use some help with.

1. The only markings are a serial number on the barrel. Can anyone tell me some history on the gun? Who made/imported it and when?

2. What is the process for disassembly?

3. On the off side there is a ring that is held on by the belt hook screw. I don't think it is original. Anyone know?

Thanks
IronHand

 

[Colonial Boy]

Take out the tang screw and GENTLY ease the barrel forward, the steel lump above the ramrod should disengage from the frame allowing the barrel to be lifted.That is how some of them work; I have an Indian all steel repro with a concealed internal catch but the same principle.
You could also.try pushing the lump backwards as it looks bigger at the front.

The ring looks as though it came off a bag.

 

[foxm1754]

The D ring is not original to the ones that I am familiar with in years past.

 

[TFoley]

I'm getting the feeling that this is a one-off tool-shop-made item or even a kit, basing that on what appears to be a solid brass stock. In itself this takes it away from the more usually fabricated Scottish pistols of my acquaintance. I could be entirely wrong, but..............................

The lack of any markings except what you term a serial number tells me that it may well have been a kit of some kind. Kits imported into the US of A did not require proofing in the country of manufacture, where that barrel and breech plug had not been assembled to enable proofing to take place.

It is also VERY small. Whilst not huge, by any means, the usual Scottish belt pistols were ITRO 12 - 15 inches in length.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

The all-metal Scotsman hand pieces are very interesting.

 

[rickystl]

I sold one of these about a year ago. It was marked Hopkins & Allen on top of the barrel. Maybe from the 1970's (?) The grip was so short, I would have to fire it with my middle finger. And I'm just an average size guy. The all steel India copy does not have that problem. But I had to send the India copy out to have the lock internals re-worked and tuned to function right.

Rick

 

[hawkeye2]

It's a copy of a cheaply made and simplified (degraded) Scottish pistol. The originals were made by John Waters of Birmingham and issued to the Royal Highland Regiments and they were carried to America by them to fight the rebels. The Black Watch, the 42nd. Infantry of Foot, was the most famous and this reproduction was marketed as the "Black Watch Pistol" back in the 1970s. I seem to remember Navy Arms being the first importer and I bought mine From Dixie for around $75 or $80 about 1977. I came across the receipt from Dixie a few weeks ago. The first imports had the lock, trigger and barrel in the white which is correct and later ones were color cased, probably as a gimmick to sell to those more interested in bling than authenticity. They were imported by more than one company over several years.

The ring didn't come with the gun. The mechanism was somewhat finicky and they may or may not work well. The barrel was thin and I have seen at least one where there was a hole machined through the barrel where the lug was fitted. Nominal .58 caliber. Mine isn't marked but I believe they were made by Armi San Marco.

 

[PathfinderNC]

It's something after the Murdoch Pistol. A thread is in this forum about one:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...mercial-murdoch-scottish-steel-pistol.113447/

 

[hawkeye2]

That thread is accurate regarding shooting the repro and recommended reading for anyone interested.

 

[IronHand]

Thank to the help from Colonial Boy I was able to dismantle the pistol. I was pleased to find proofs and a date stamp showing that it was made by ASM in 1986. The fact that it is a factory gun, not a kit, is a plus.

Is it the same as historical examples, no. That is not a big deal to me. My reading indicates that this type of gun was made by multiple people for both the military and civilian markets, with considerable variation in the details.

Thanks everyone for the help.
Looking forward to shooting it.

IronHand

P. S. The ring is gone.

 

[Rudyard]

I once made a steel issue pistol following two original issue ones by Corbett & the other by Petcairn The brass ones are pretty degenarate & of liitle practicle use . One of the two was engraved RHR 2 Bat .There where apparently only a 2nd bat in the 7 years war (F& I ) made in Washington state used it a lot doing RHR then sold it in Mass . .Mostly I made Lemon butt S' hances more in keeping with' Mac Robs ? avatar Showing the targe & a fluted earlier gun . All good stuff Who made the longarm Mac Rob ? I,ve made some of them . rare birds the few originals .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Auldjin]

My reading indicates that this type of gun was made by multiple people

My all-steel pistols, both made for the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Highland Regiment, were produced by different makers They must have been made about the same time since the battalion was raised in 1759 and disbanded four years later. Unfortunately I have not yet been able to identify either of them.

 

[oreclan]

This may be a Navy Arms import. I bought a similar brass Scottish pistol in the 1970s for $58. It only had a serial number on the barrel. It was too late for F&I War reenacting so I traded it to a Longhunter for a hand woven tumpline. Maybe not the best deal I ever made, but I really like the tumpline!
The ring under the belt hook is not original to the pistol.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Auldjin,
I think the top pistol is by John Christie (I CH .....) and one of his known pistols for the 2nd battalion Highland regiment from the 1750s. I think it possible the lower pistol is by the mysterious Scottish maker "A.C." who also was known to make military pistols of the rams horn style during the 1750s.

dave

 

[Auldjin]

Thank you, I will make a note of those.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Auldjin,
You are welcome and thank you for posting photos of those pistols. I enjoyed seeing them.

dave

 

[toot]

It's a copy of a cheaply made and simplified (degraded) Scottish pistol. The originals were made by John Waters of Birmingham and issued to the Royal Highland Regiments and they were carried to America by them to fight the rebels. The Black Watch, the 42nd. Infantry of Foot, was the most famous and this reproduction was marketed as the "Black Watch Pistol" back in the 1970s. I seem to remember Navy Arms being the first importer and I bought mine From Dixie for around $75 or $80 about 1977. I came across the receipt from Dixie a few weeks ago. The first imports had the lock, trigger and barrel in the white which is correct and later ones were color cased, probably as a gimmick to sell to those more interested in bling than authenticity. They were imported by more than one company over several years.

The ring didn't come with the gun. The mechanism was somewhat finicky and they may or may not work well. The barrel was thin and I have seen at least one where there was a hole machined through the barrel where the lug was fitted. Nominal .58 caliber. Mine isn't marked but I believe they were made by Armi San Marco.

correct, mine is also a ARMI SAN MARCO.

 

[Colonial Boy]

IronHand,

Glad I could help.

 

[Alan O]

correct, mine is also a ARMI SAN MARCO.

I have one just like it with "S Marco" stamped on the side of the barrel with a serial #. A photo of the original can be found on p.35 of the book, "Scottish Firearms" by Blair and Woosnam-Savage. Lots of info in there.

 

[Alan O]

I have one just like it with "S Marco" stamped on the side of the barrel with a serial #. A photo of the original can be found on p.35 of the book, "Scottish Firearms" by Blair and Woosnam-Savage. Lots of info in there. Here's a photo of mine