Serial Number Dating a T/C

[cannonball1]

I made six T.C. Hawkens from kits in the early 70's. I didn't find any of the guns that would shoot the same. The first one I made was a tackdriver, the second one shot all over the place, and the remainder just shot, but nothing to brag about, but then I started making guns with Green River Barrels. I guess you really can't compare.

 

[necchi]

This topic seems to come up regularly with no definitive answer to the question

Thank you dragnet,,
Your right,, it doesn't matter what the myth and mystery is or how special one mark or another is or even means.
Does the rifle shoot?
Some of us seem to be able to do pretty good with those old guns,,

 

[good ole boy]

View attachment 1538 View attachment 1538 View attachment 1538
I wonder what a Maltese cross on the underside would signify.

Maybe a German war buff made the barrel.

 

[MiddleJohn]

I just pulled my barrel and found a mark that resembles an “M” stamped on the bottom of the barrel 5 or 6 inches above the breech. Anyone have any idea what it means?

And my 12,xxx flintlock has the heart under the barrel and B stamped twice in the stock under the barrel.
'74 or '75 production perhaps???

 

[thixotropy]

Barrels marked with crosses, hearts, spades and clubs were rumored to be from the Sharon Barrel company out of Montana, I believe. They were early production and have all proven to be exceptionally accurate.

 

[necchi]

Barrels marked with crosses, hearts, spades and clubs were rumored to be from ,,,

Ok,, Prove it,, Honestly.
What documentation do you have to "show" your statement as true?
Oh, wait,, I guess you can't prove a rumor,,
We have all been waiting for that proof for decades.

 

[dragnetbill]

Ok,, Prove it,, Honestly.
What documentation do you have to "show" your statement as true?
Oh, wait,, I guess you can't prove a rumor,,
We have all been waiting for that proof for decades.

The only truth on this subject for me at this point is that if presented with a choice between two similar condition T/C rifles, one with a spade marked barrel and one not so marked, I'm going to choose the spade marked.

 

[imforguns]

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/who-made-tcs-hawken-barrels.145311/
This link is to The Firearms Forum and they are talking about TC barrel makers. It is a good read with a little insight about the makers and markings on TC barrels.

 

[thixotropy]

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/who-made-tcs-hawken-barrels.145311/
This link is to The Firearms Forum and they are talking about TC barrel makers. It is a good read with a little insight about the makers and markings on TC barrels.

Thanks, for that, that's the first definitive thing I've seen-I'm surprised no one's ever done any kind of history of the company-I've heard all kinds of stuff from secret locations where they buried all the spare parts and barrels after the company closed, on and on. I heard also Douglas used all their ML barrels as rebar after they quit selling them as result of law suits from a couple geniuses who loaded with smokeless and blew themselves up.

 

[necchi]

This link is to The Firearms Forum and they are talking about TC barrel makers.

Geezuz,, did you even read that before you posted?
One guy said he talked with Hal Sharon,, quoting that Hal knew nothing of the marks and that they could be from inspectors,, and the very next post describes that Sharon barrels have a spade mark,

After all these years watching this myth linger and perpetuate,, I have never seen anyone step up to say that one mark or another is a better shooting barrel then the other.
And I think that's because the guy's that worry about a barrel mark,, just plain can't shoot and want to find other "bragging rights"
"I've got THIS rifle" as they sit around the camp fire,,
"Yeah? Who cares," say's the shooter, "I have THIS prize",, "and I'm taking it home with me"

 

[Carbon 6]

I honestly don't know why people get all excited about serial numbers.....I mean really, T/C's were nothing more than the only cheap American made factory produced muzzleloader. They were really no better than your average European import.

After all these years of Pyrodex, bore butter, shifting suppliers, recalls and T/C dropping traditional all together, the only true measure of a quality T/C barrel is on a target down range.

Serials are useless.

 

[vintovka]

One way to prove stamps are Hals would be someone with a Sharon product (like a Hawken 20 gauge slip in barrel) would post a pic. Even an early TC contender (especially the then forbidden 45/410) would help. I know for sure as Hal told me of his markings which were primarily the heart and the clubs. I think he stopped marking them for some liability issues just before his contract with TC ended. As for any added value I dunno. At the rate the locks and set triggers around here seem to be failing ( and without replacement parts) TCs values may take a big hit even if accurate. The L&R replacements now cost more than i paid for the whole rifle. One last point. IMHO TC messed up when they chose a 28" barrel over a 32. A double pinned 32 like the Lyman just feels and looks better. A TC with 32" and Single pinned feels ok but looks wrong. IIRC the packaging folks had a hand in the barrel length for shipping. You may fire when ready.

 

[Kansas Jake]

When T/C started selling their rifles in the early 1970s there were few other options for the average person getting into black powder. They were much nicer looking than the average CVA or others available in the local gun shop. Also, remember this was a long time before the internet. The T/C was a nice looking gun, came from a known manufacturer and carried a lifetime warranty. Now I know my warranty at this point is worthless, but at the time it was important and they stood behind it back then in most cases. I think all of these things contributed to their popularity. In the dollar of the day they weren't really a cheap gun. HC/PC not really, but they were as correct as the CVA/Jukar with the sheet brass cover for the two piece barrel. Also, the mountain man craze was at it's peak during those years.

 

[vintovka]

Kansas Jake is correct. I have been fortunate to have direct contacts of the industry like Dixie, Bill Ruger, VAl Forgett Sr , the Pedersolis Ect. All said about same thing about the BP craze being largely fueled by the 1968 gun laws. Now that Black Guns are all the rage the industry has seriously declined. The massive loss of respect for such laws isn't helping. Weird to see the BP section of the SHOT shows shrink down to less than the airgun section. I think even heinous firearm restriction will restore the hobby for the common guys leaving only high priced stuff.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Another issue for many folks in more urban settings is having a place to shoot BP guns. Many people's local option if they are only occasional shooters is an indoor gun range and often those cater more to handguns and some may not allow BP guns even if they are handguns. I'm lucky and have a public outdoor range less than 20 miles from me. If it wasn't there the next closest range is over 50 miles. I'm not into rendezvousing any more, so that is not a viable option and even then many of them are some distance away.

 

[vintovka]

Not many indoor ranges can tolerate BP shooting. We tried it once and the noise/smoke ended it pretty quick. Burning patchs caused the unburned powder collected in the floors contraction joints to ignite and burn like dynamite fuse!! Used to have my own rifle and trap range down in the PRK but no more. Have a place a mile away now that works well.

 

[Khufu]

When I got into BP, back in the early 70s, I was lucky to be living in Utah, we had several black powder specialty shops
and a couple of sporting goods stores that sold BP stuff. so choices were not limited. Lyman Great Plains and CVA were clearly the most popular, both kits and finished rifles. I built several CVA kits, and bought a Lyman Great Plains in .54 flint. we had several custom builders back then, Dennis Moford being the most prominent. Ranges were available every where, and if you were in an area where you were not allowed to shoot, the cops let it slide when they saw you had black powder guns. not many guys shot TC, and their sharp pointed patch boxes and furniture were a little futuristic, and kinda ugly (The Renegade being a plain Jane barn gun option). The price was higher than the others, and the only advantage I saw was the Seneca was available in .36 and that was not available from Lyman or CVA. Dixie was a catalog thing, and not many of those were around. At the rendezvous, the winners did not seem gun dependent, it was the shooters. I never owned a T/C, though I did shoot a couple, they shot OK, but did not fit me too well (had I bought that .36 I had my eye on, I would have restocked it to make it fit. But I finally bought a barrel blank and made a .32 barrel set for my CVA Mountain flinter. I have several CVA Mountain rifles, including a .54 with a Douglas barrel. and to be honest, the most accurate is a Spanish made Jukar. While its nice to have Douglas barrel, I still break out the Jukar Barrel when I need pin point accuracy

 

[necchi]

is a Spanish made Jukar.

and a "thumbs-up".
Those old 45cal 33" slow twists can be and still are tack drivers!!

 

[thixotropy]

When I got into BP, back in the early 70s, I was lucky to be living in Utah, we had several black powder specialty shops
and a couple of sporting goods stores that sold BP stuff. so choices were not limited. Lyman Great Plains and CVA were clearly the most popular, both kits and finished rifles. I built several CVA kits, and bought a Lyman Great Plains in .54 flint. we had several custom builders back then, Dennis Moford being the most prominent. Ranges were available every where, and if you were in an area where you were not allowed to shoot, the cops let it slide when they saw you had black powder guns. not many guys shot TC, and their sharp pointed patch boxes and furniture were a little futuristic, and kinda ugly (The Renegade being a plain Jane barn gun option). The price was higher than the others, and the only advantage I saw was the Seneca was available in .36 and that was not available from Lyman or CVA. Dixie was a catalog thing, and not many of those were around. At the rendezvous, the winners did not seem gun dependent, it was the shooters. I never owned a T/C, though I did shoot a couple, they shot OK, but did not fit me too well (had I bought that .36 I had my eye on, I would have restocked it to make it fit. But I finally bought a barrel blank and made a .32 barrel set for my CVA Mountain flinter. I have several CVA Mountain rifles, including a .54 with a Douglas barrel. and to be honest, the most accurate is a Spanish made Jukar. While its nice to have Douglas barrel, I still break out the Jukar Barrel when I need pin point accuracy

Interesting about the JUKAR, I've not had such luck with the Spanish but have several USA made-decades ago I started with a renegade, went to a drop-in G.M. barrel, eventually restocked that and had a pretty accurate rifle for quite awhile until it and a bunch others were stolen. My favorites were a matched pair of Dixie 50's full stock Japanese barrels in percussion and flint which were winners-those I'd like to have back.

 

[Grenadier1758]

One way to prove stamps are Hals would be someone with a Sharon product (like a Hawken 20 gauge slip in barrel) would post a pic. Even an early TC contender (especially the then forbidden 45/410) would help. I know for sure as Hal told me of his markings which were primarily the heart and the clubs. I think he stopped marking them for some liability issues just before his contract with TC ended. As for any added value I dunno. At the rate the locks and set triggers around here seem to be failing ( and without replacement parts) TCs values may take a big hit even if accurate. The L&R replacements now cost more than i paid for the whole rifle. One last point. IMHO TC messed up when they chose a 28" barrel over a 32. A double pinned 32 like the Lyman just feels and looks better. A TC with 32" and Single pinned feels ok but looks wrong. IIRC the packaging folks had a hand in the barrel length for shipping. You may fire when ready.

This is only one example but its all I have.

The closest I can come to a Sharon barrel of 1975 vintage is what can best be referred to as a Northwest Florida Special rifle made in the mid 1970's by a gunsmith who believed that the T/C lock and breech were just special and he made a rifle using a T/C breech/plug on a Sharon barrel. The builder wanted to verify the accuracy of muzzleloading rifles so he mounted several sights and scopes on it. The closest to the Hearts, Spades and Clubs and other identifying features was in his "Bridge" sight mount with the heart, spade, and diamond. The Club is in the shape of the architecture. I bought the rifle and added the T/C tang mounted Peep sight.

Pictures follow with the only mark being the Sharon stamp :

In my cabinet is a T/C Hawken Kit rifle (pre Warning) of the same vintage.

It has a diamond stamped near the breech and the M in a circle near the wedge dovetail.

The T/C turned out pretty good and its what started me on shooting a building muzzleloaders.