Severly leading a bore maybe with wheel weights??

[jh45gun]

I saw this posted at a cast bullet site at a other forum I go to. My contention is he severly leaded the bore and of course we all know moderate cleaning will not get rid if the lead if leaded up that bad unless you really do some cleaning to it. What do you guys think. I do not think wheel weights would wreck a barrel as you can scratch the stuff with your finger it is not as soft and lead but it is not that hard either. I think he leaded the bore and did not clean it properly. Jim

Quote:
I ruined a Nice kentucky rifle barrel with them in one afteroon.
It was not roundball I was shooting though, it was LEE
R.E.A.L. bullets. I fired probably 40 rounds and noticed
that accuracy started falling off severly. I thought the barrel
had become fouled, cleaned it and found that I almost
has a smoothbore. As I can not tell the alloy they are made from,
I do not use wheel weights anymore.

 

[The Dog Man]

Depends whether you're shooting round ball or cast bullets. With RB, the patch keeps the bore from leading up, but with the cast bullet, friction + heat will lead to leading...

Tom

 

[crockett]

Sort of a mystery. Check out the basics. If it is a conical and doesn't fit tight enough to seal the bore, then there may be gas cutting, in effect melting the lead as it leaks past and therefore fouling the bore. Try a different bullet and check the results.

Old muzzleloading barrels were iron, today's are mostly steel. Shouldn't be a leading problem. If conical- is the bullet lubed and is it the proper lube.

 

[Stumpkiller]

That's what you get for not using a cotton patch as God intended. :nono:

Leprechauns and lead aren't supposed to touch iron. ::

 

[Rat]

Hard lead will lead with low pressure loads, such as black powder loads are, where pure lead will not. It is indeed because the hard lead does not "set back" and seal the bore, and the gas goes past the projectile, melting the lead as it does.

No doubt those REAL's you had were cast from harder lead, someone probably "meant well" thinking they would work better for heavier loads....NOT!

I cast my own REALs out of PURE lead and they work very well, ZERO leading with heavy loads. REALs are good bullets, but must be cast of very soft lead.

The harder the lead, the more pressure it needs to set it up a bit. But even the most heavy loads (within reason) in a muzzle loader don't approach the pressures needed to make the very hard lead alloys work. Nor do they produce the velocity for soft lead to lead a barrel, from velocity in it's self.

Also, in a modern gun/breech loader the bullet is usually larger than the bore, which makes the problem less severe.

No leading will hurt a bore if it's cleaned out properly.

Rat

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Shooting unpatched projectiles resulting in leading is much more a question of lubricants rather than alloys.

To use smokeless powder cast bullet lube in a muzzleloader almost always guarantees problems.

I shoot bare balls cast from WW in my fusil, have never experienced any problems.

 

[ffffg]

ill have to agree with Rat.. i think he pretty much sums it up correctly.. bullet diameter, lube, and alloy must be in certain perameters to stop leading.. im not familiar with real bullets, but if they have a skirt, too hard of lead would be a problem.. dave..

 

[jh45gun]

Thanks guys I will pass on the info. For the record Rat it was not me that used the wheel weights. Rat I only use pure lead in my muzzle loaders I was given a roll of sheeting of pure lead so I have a moderate supply. I save that for my muzzle loading projectiles and use wheel weights for my centerfire rifle bullets. Jim

 

[Rat]

OOOOOOOOOH! Sheeting is VERY good stuff! Rat LIKE sheeting!

Yes I save my WW's for my 44 Magnum pistols and rifle. (which don't see a lot of use anymore) Also for the 7.62X25mm.

In that Fusil, I would guess that as the ball is not trying to engage rifling, it is more forgiving as to the leading with hard lead/WW's. No torque type forces acting on it...that's my best guess anyhow. Maybe the resistance is so low that the gas tends not to cut past the ball, ball stays ahead...??

:hmm: ::

No the REALs don't have a skirt, they have a flat base.

Rat

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I shoot the .62 fusil with a 3/8" lubed wad under the ball and a 1/8" over powder card beneath that. If one should suspect gas blow by, a lubed wad is the normal cure for such.

 

[Hoyt]

I want to shoot them out of my .62cal. smoothbore.
I've only tried them once in muzzleloader and that was my .50cal. inline. I put a 310gr. ww. .44cal. in a green sabot..44cal. and shot it at target with big pc. of plywood behind it at 50yds. with scoped inline.. didn't hit the target or plywood.
But I do think they would be fine in a smoothbore.
I can get wheel weight fairly cheap and don't have a supply of pure lead...so I'm going to give them a try when I get around to it.

These are all the answers from the question "Patched rifle balls using straight WW" on a cast bullet forum.

"I started out using straight WW balls in my fusil smoothie, one day while casting .62's, I had a go at some .54's for the Lancaster. I have been more than a little pleased with the results. Except maybe for hunting someday, I cannot see going back to using pure lead for paper punching and rock blasting."

"I've shot WW RB for over thirty years. Animals don't complain. You get deeper penetration with WW. Competition occassionally whines if they loose."

"I have also been using PRB cast of Wheel Weights for a very long time.
I find no, none, zilch, zero, fault with them, as long as I don't tell anybody what alloy I used for casting."

When I mention Wheel Weights, it seems those much smarter than myself get all nervous, and come up with hundreds of reasons for why I shouldn't be doing that.
Kinda, "don't ask, don't tell" for me.
I guess, I'm a closet shooter of the Wheel Weight when it comes to Round Ball."

 

[RussB]

For what it is worth...........I have shot "hundreds" of REAL's cast from WW in .50 and .54 cal., without leading.

Back in the days of AOL Gun Talk, around 1995 / 1996, there was a lot of talk about this same subject. And a lot of good information changed hands.
Even before that, back in the mid to late 1980's we were discussing this on Prodigy!
Of course, this same subject has been in debate since the first wheel weight (WW) was melted into a bullet.

Back in the 1960's, I felt very strongly that if I could melt it, I could shoot it in a muzzleloader. That has not changed a lot.

It seems that you can cast some pretty hard flat base conicals, up to a BHN of about 12 / 14, and shoot them just fine in muzzleloaders, even using heavy powder charges, by doing two things.

First off....they must be tumble lubed with a Alox Lube. Soft, BP lubes, seem to "lead" every time.
Any of the "Shake & Bake" lubes seems to work fairly well. I used to use "Rooster", but I haven't found it in a while. Lee Alox seems to work just fine, and it is cheap.

Secondly...IMO,You should always use a wad under the FB conical when shooting WW.
I use plain ol' milk carton wads that I cut with a homemade[url] punch....made[/url] from a piece of conduit of the right diameter.
The more knowledgeable refer to this milk carton wad as a "HDTP"......high density, something or other.....to me, it is a simple milk carton.
I'm sure the felt wads may have merit as a lot of folks praise them. It just seems that additional eight, or nine cents per shot, could add up pretty quick, if one does a lot of shooting.....another plus for cutting your own out of milk cartons, maybe.

I have pushed water dropped WW conicals past the 1900fps mark with both the .50 and the .54....and surprisingly enough, you will find a lower SD when using properly prepared WW, as opposed to pure lead. Albeit, I can not hold well enough to take advantage of lower SD's......

When casting, you must always remember that the harder the alloy, the smaller the diameter of the bullet...up to a point....when using the same mould. ie, pure lead may cast at .500, while Wheel Weights (WW), from that same mould will only be .497, or .498....A "Bump-up" die should be used in this case.

The big question to this is..."Why do we do all this"? Why are we even concerned?
It seems there are two schools of thought....one for the roundball and patch, and one for the conical. I will not comment on this as it is everyone's right to think and do as they please. I am not here to convert anyone to my way of thinking....both sides have merit.

Yet again, and it is very hard to explain, many of us just like to "tinker" with such stuff, and for those that feel the conical just may be superior to the roundball for penetration...those same folks also feel that the "harder" the alloy the "badder" the bullet.

I feel the culprit, in the leading of barrels, is nearly always the lube and diameter of the projectile.

Just my thoughts..........

Russ

 

[brubincam]

someone gave me solder a few years ago i made round balls,,shot just fine and accurate,patches protect the barrel :results:

 

[jh45gun]

Russ, I agree that Lee Liquid ALox is darn good stuff. I use it for all my cast bullets except muzzle loader projectiles. I wonder about Muzzle loader bullets :: as Lee Liquid Alox does contain Petrolium Distilates which I have always heard does not work worth a darn with black powder or the substitutes. I also have heard Lee does not reccomend it for muzzle loaders. If it works for you fine but I really do not want to gunk up any of my bores with any petrolium based products. Jim

 

[RussB]

Russ, I agree that Lee Liquid ALox is darn good stuff. I use it for all my cast bullets except muzzle loader projectiles. I wonder about Muzzle loader bullets :: as Lee Liquid Alox does contain Petrolium Distilates which I have always heard does not work worth a darn with black powder or the substitutes. I also have heard Lee does not reccomend it for muzzle loaders. If it works for you fine but I really do not want to gunk up any of my bores with any petrolium based products. Jim

You are absolutely right Jim...It is not recommended for muzzleloaders.
The Rooster, to the best of my knowledge, had a small "quirk" on it's useage with muzzleloaders, but I don't believe they came right out and said, "yes, it's okay".
Others, or I should say "the majority" of folks feel as you do. I have to admit to rejecting the thought myself before trying it. Having tried it, I have found nothing wrong with it.
But that does not mean that it's the best, or even that it is ok...it's just been the best I've used, when compared with other BP lubes, for shooting hard cast in muzzleloaders.

Russ

 

[jh45gun]

Thanks Russ I made a lube of half beeswax and half bore butter for my conicals and it seems to work real well for me. Jim

 

[Enfield1]

I have shot with wheel weight lead and not have not noticed any problem. I melt the lead in a melting pot and make sure that I flux the molten lead with some parafin (spelling?) wax once or twice and use Lyman molds. I also finish my shooting sessions by digging lead out of the berms where I shoot to be melted and used to make more bullets.

 

[BLAHMAN]

The guy didn't really 'ruin' his gun, he made a lot of work getting the leaded barrel problem solved...an awfull lot of scrubbing is needed.

I beleive you need mercury to remove the lead, lotsa luck gettin that stuff!

I agree with Stumpy: use a patch. Maybe the guy wanted to see what would happen if he used them bullets, maybe he thought "hey, why not give it a try, that way I don't have to go through all the work of using a patch". Who knows?

Speaking of WW's, damn things are hard to pull of moving tires! (Driver's don't like it neither!)

 

[RussB]

Jim....The error of my ways has been very kindly pointed out to me, and I would like to correct that.

In a previous post I said....."When casting, you must always remember that the harder the alloy, the smaller the diameter of the bullet...up to a point....when using the same mould. ie, pure lead may cast at .500, while Wheel Weights (WW), from that same mould will only be .497, or .498....A "Bump-up" die should be used in this case".

That is totally reversed!

Bump-up is required for lead, while sizing may be required for other alloys.

The harder the alloy, the larger the projectile will be.

In other words, if the mould is marked .500 that will be the diameter of the projectile when cast from #2 Alloy. And, on top of that, you have to check every mould very closely to see what it is actually throwing.

What is #2 Alloy?
#2 Alloy can be made from;
A.... 9 lb. of wheelweight plus 1 lb. of 50/50 bar solder, for a total of 10 pounds of #2 Alloy.
B.... 4 lb. of Linotype plus 1lb. 50/50 bar solder, plus 5lb. of pure lead for a total of 10 pounds of #2 Alloy.

Lyman lists the following effects of alloy's on final size cast for a .308 bullet.
Avg.dia.as cast;
Lead............. .3090
Wheelweights..... .3095
#2 Alloy......... .3100
Linotype ........ .3103

I still think that a tumble lube will work fine on hard cast conicals for the muzzleloader, using Black[url] Powder.....in[/url] a lot of guns.
At least in every gun I have.
And, like all muzzleloaders, they need to cleaned real good after shooting. But I have seen no other problems whatsoever.

Russ

 

[jh45gun]

Thanks Russ, I use straight wheel weights for my centerfire bullets with no problems casting. Or I may add bit of tin if I have it. Like I said I have some good straight lead so I do use that for my muzzle loaders since I have it. I think the biggest thing is getting a good lube and using it. I made a lube of bees wax and borebutter as that is what I had on hand and it works fine. Thanks for the alloy info though I have seen that before but maybe some one else has not. Jim