Shooting Long-Range for Elk

[Sparkitoff]

I think you may be backwards on that Clyde. A pistol bullet of the type you mentioned (that we don't mention) is designed to work at sub-sonic velocities. Few standard handguns exceed that and not by much. Checking some of the manufacturers specs they cite working parameters as low as 800 fps. So at 300 yds it would be in working parameters. I'm not trying to be rude, you have me confused. I do appreciate your input.

What do you mean velocity kills? Lighter projectiles tend to be faster (more velocity). But the S.D. and Momentum is much less, retarding penetration. I believe there is more to it than just the velocity. I have found that the faster I send a .54 lead conical (this one is 535 grain) downrange the more it flattens out. This could potentially effect penetration.

I am willing to learn with room for improvement.

 

[SDSmlf]

The 45 caliber Hornady Great Plains Bullets I have seen were 285 grain hollowpoints, and would think they would be too light and fragile for elk.

The 50 and 54 Hornady Great Plains Hollowpoint Bullets that I tried in a number of guns (48 and faster twists) shot ok but moved off the powder. In one Cabelas’ Hawken Carbine you can actually hear the bullet ”˜clunk’ as you moved the barrel back and forth from pointing up and down. Moved about halfway up the barrel. Seemed to usually stop about where the barrel lug is spot welded on. It’s a fast twist barrel that will handle light charges behind a PRB, but becomes a tack driver with projectile types that we avoid here.

 

[Katahdin]

Hunt close,,anyone can blast away and hope but stalking is much more rewarding.Evens up the playing field so to speak.Old Bow hunter that I am I hunt close and then move in closer,40 yards maximum.Do not eat much fresh kill any more,but when I do, it feels great.

 

[coloradoclyde]

What do you mean velocity kills?

I'm not sure how to explain it. Other than the more velocity you have on impact the more destruction.

Velocity can bleed off quickly with some bullets.

As for hollow point pistol bullets, Most hunting hollow points are designed for a supersonic impact. I speak from actual testing experience. I test everything I shoot....
Above all else that's probably my point. "testing"....It involves more than just target practice.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Few standard handguns exceed that and not by much. Checking some of the manufacturers specs they cite working parameters as low as 800 fps. So at 300 yds it would be in working parameters.

Which handgun would you choose to shoot an elk?

 

[nkbj]

Reminds me of the time in the high Unitas the two of us were seeking the first upper beaver pond to be silted up and found it, walking into a small clearing occupied by a cow moose and her excited paramour. Had naught but a five shot on my hip and the hiking boots did double duty as track shoes.

 

[SDSmlf]

Believe it or not there are handgunners out there that are just as passionate about taking big game with them as many on this forum are about using muzzleloaders. Their weapon of choice happens to be a handgun. I actually currently own two that I wouldn’t hesitate to hunt elk with, however, they are not discussed here.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Yep!...And there are 30-06 handguns with scopes....But, what muzzleloading handgun would you use to hunt elk? ....What distance would you limit?

So many ethical considerations....All pretty much have the same criteria.

Ethics are a personal choice.....Some have none. I use to hunt with guys that had none....They traded ethics for chance.

 

[SDSmlf]

There is an inline handgun out there that would work, but aren’t you going off topic? Thought we were discussing long range muzzleloading side lock rifle shooting at elk when question about using a modern style pistol bullet came up? Not here to discuss handguns. Different forums, maybe one that discusses inline type muzzleloaders or pistols could answer your question?

 

[coloradoclyde]

I'm definetly not discussing "inline" anything.

The OP's question was,

The question is simply this: With the parameters above how long is the longest shot a person can reasonable ethically shoot an elk. I drew a limited entry ML hunt for elk in Utah. I know what I think, but thought it would be interesting in what all of you think.

I'm discussing the "ethics" part of that question using handguns for comparison. Given the parameters he listed I would say 50 yards would be a reasonable distance, with a 100 being a "hail marry" shot. The reason is lack of accuracy and stating impact energy and velocity

 

[nkbj]

A .62 with fast enough twist would be much more ethical.
:haha:

 

[nkbj]

Which reminds me, need to finish the rear sight for the Pedersoli 1816 so's can get a barrel for these inordinately ethical sauropod slayers.

 

[Sparkitoff]

If I chose to use a handgun on an elk because I just had too, I would end up with something very similar to a muzzleloader rifle. And use it to the same parameters I choose to use that rifle at. Something like a 300-400 grain hardcast projectile at 1400 fps or a little more. Maybe a longer barrel 45 Colt with Grizzly Cartridge loads or one of the Linebaugh things or the newest S&W cartrdiges. I don't find any pleasure in shooting those kinds of handguns so I choose not too. But Clydes point is right on - if I did choose a handgun it would have ballistics similar to a ML rifle and I'd use it within the same parameters. In this case it'd be a 45 or 50 cal with conical, so I'm limiting myself to 100 yds and hope for a lot less. With a .54 and conical rifle (and maybe something that starts with a 6) I am confident about 100 yards further than that under the right (perfect) conditions.

 

[Zonie]

The OP was not about handguns or hunting with them.

Let us please get off of discussing them in this topic.

As for a long range shot on an elk with a muzzleloader, IMO it might extend out to 125 or 130 yards.

Elk are big and I think it takes quite a bit of power to kill one.
Round balls tend to run out of power rapidly and at 130 yards they have lost a lot of it.

As for heavier bullets, yes they maintain a lot of their power further downrange but even so, at black powder velocities they have a very curved trajectory compared with modern guns. That makes estimating distance at long range critical if any success is going to be expected.

My biggest reason for suggesting 130 as a max range for elk is, we are talking about pre 1865 guns with rather crude sights. Yes, peep sights are better than open sights but most of the guns made before 1865 have open sights and I think most of the muzzleloading rifles we use today also use open sights.

Even good shooters can have difficulty in placing their shot exactly where they want it under hunting conditions at 130 yards with open sights so being able to place a shot where it needs to be is critical.

I think the hunter owes it to the elk to make a shot that will kill it quickly. To do this, accuracy is paramount.

Slightly off topic, IMO, if a hunter decides to use a muzzleloading rifle to hunt with they must accept its weaknesses and adjust their hunting to cope with them.

That means shooting at a distance that is considerably less than a modern gun can be used at.
It means the hunter must actually hunt, working himself close enough to the game animal so there is no doubt about making the kill.

Bow hunters do this all the time and a muzzleloading rifle will extend the range to over 4 times most bow hunters will use.

Good luck.

 

[tenngun]

Historically Jäger rifles in the .54- 72 cal range were fitted with folding leaf sights for 300 or more yards. The target could be chamois or red deer( European elk), elk( European moose)and bear or boar. And they were shooting ball not conical.
Ethics are in the eye of the beholder. I would not want to push my skill or gun beyond a hundred yards... that’s my ethics.

 

[Gene L]

I have never killed an elk and never will, but will pass on the experience of my friend who killed one with a 50# hickory bow that followed the string about 2". He shot the cow at close range and it penetrated to the hide on the other side and stopped at the skin. So I believe it takes penetration to kill an elk regardless of the missle. He shot it at close range and it tracked maybe 50 yards before it went down. So they're not bullet proof so long as you get up close. Imagine how much more penetration you get with a PRB and damage you get with a PRB over a broadhead with a moderately weak bow. Our predecessors on this continent did it with flint heads and wooden bows for centuries, but they did it by getting close. And I think there's something to be learned from that. Get close and you won't have to worry about long distance; it becomes a theory.

 

[tenngun]

Good point. I killed one elk and it was about thirty five yards. I will never get a chance again. I tell folks that ML is archery on steroids. Yes old timers made long shots but I believe an unsuccessful hunt is better then taking a long shot. I’ve always used ball and now pretty much stick to smoothies. Infact my next build I’m planning is a smooth rifle.

 

[cannonball1]

Well here is my take on elk. This year if I get a chance at a elk at 200 yards I will take it. Beyond that I would have to have my shooting table and dead rest with no wind and that ain't going to happen. That was my opinion when I started this blog and no one has given me strong enough argument to change. The elk I shot with a ML was at 150 yards with a 62 caliber round ball.

 

[azmntman]

Well yer older than me and likely more knowledgeable so go for it. Personally I just never practice those long shots so I dont take em. The two times I did I used KY windage and got real lucky, looking back I'da kicked my Arse for trying either one :shake:

If I practiced it and was good and had a HIGH DOLLAR range finder maybe I would. Keep us posted, we do like pics here .

 

[Idaho Ron]

Idaho Ron is about the best long range shot I've seen on here, based upon his informative and detailed posts, both on the range and on hunts. I'll let him speak for himself because I admire him and his dedication to detail and practice. But I don't recall him EVER talking about 300 yard shots and hunting in the same breath.

Thanks BB. Your right I have never condoned taking the first shot past 150. That said I will not say no if my son wants to take a first shot at 175. I know how he shoots and I know that if he drops the hammer that animal is hit.
As you know I do have my guns sighted in for 300 yards. I do practice out to 300 regularly. The reason is if something happened with my first shot and something went wrong. A hang fire, or something went wrong and that animal is not hit hard enough. I want my gear set up so that if I can get a second shot I can take a follow up out to 300 yards. I have never had to do that, and I am thankful for that.