Shooting Smokeless In A Green Mountain Barrel

[Jäger]

Okay, I'm sure that title attracted lots of attention...

Like everyone else, I've heard the ironclad rule about no smokeless in muzzleloaders for years. But, I'm sitting here thinking... That goes without question with Spanish proofed barrels and certainly with heavy charges for hunting.

But...

Let's see... we're talking about a quality rifle barrel that measures 1" across the flats - a barrel which might even be made of the same barrel steel as that used in centerfire rifles. In the middle of this 1" barrel is a .32" bore - that leaves a lot of steel surrounding the pipe.

Now, out of this big barrel/little hole, we want to shoot a 47 grain lead ball (or what the heck, a 103 gr maxi-ball) at a sedentry 1200 fps or so - that should be enough to put a hole in a tin can or a target.

Given all of that, I'm surprised somebody hasn't developed very small charges of smokeless for this kind of shooting. Like about 3 grains of Red Dot, for example... I doubt that is going to develop anything remotely like 20,000 psi.

Curious as to whether anybody has delved into loads like this. Once I get my strain gauge pressure testing setup, I might just have to investigate this...

 

[soggy]

Curious as to whether anybody has delved into loads like this. Once I get my strain gauge pressure testing setup, I might just have to investigate this...
.

.
:hmm: Yeah.......well it was nice knowing ya............. :youcrazy: don't even THINK about it ! IMHO
Soggy

 

:shocked2: Are ya HAPPILY married? Suicide ain't the answer my friend.
Here's the deal. Modern smokeless powders are made to be used in enclosed containers like brass casings. These are usually stuck into the BREECH end of a rifle designed for that purpose. Have a happy and long life. Don't screw with modern powders in a muzzleloading barrel :winking:
Don

 

[roundball]

Okay, I'm sure that title attracted lots of attention...

Like everyone else, I've heard the ironclad rule about no smokeless in muzzleloaders for years. But, I'm sitting here thinking... That goes without question with Spanish proofed barrels and certainly with heavy charges for hunting.

But...

Let's see... we're talking about a quality rifle barrel that measures 1" across the flats - a barrel which might even be made of the same barrel steel as that used in centerfire rifles. In the middle of this 1" barrel is a .32" bore - that leaves a lot of steel surrounding the pipe.

Now, out of this big barrel/little hole, we want to shoot a 47 grain lead ball (or what the heck, a 103 gr maxi-ball) at a sedentry 1200 fps or so - that should be enough to put a hole in a tin can or a target.

Given all of that, I'm surprised somebody hasn't developed very small charges of smokeless for this kind of shooting. Like about 3 grains of Red Dot, for example... I doubt that is going to develop anything remotely like 20,000 psi.

Curious as to whether anybody has delved into loads like this. Once I get my strain gauge pressure testing setup, I might just have to investigate this...

Since you asked, please don't be offended by this response.

1) First, GM plainly stamps their barrels with the warning: "For Black Powder Only"
Personally I'd respect their professional engineering recommendations before I'd risk some sort of "OK" from a bunch of total strangers on the Intrernet;

2) But even putting aside potential safety issues, the bigger question is why would you want to???
Why would you want to use modern smokeless powder in a rifle (barrel) that's attempting to reflect a traditional muzzleloader barrel design, and to be used as such?

As I as said, please don't be offended by my resposne to your question, but it just puzzles me anyone would want to do that.

It would be like someone buying a Flintlock for the challenge of learning to shoot a Flintlock, but then immediately looking for a modern synthetic "DuraFlint" to use in it, so as not to be bothered with learning about real Flints, how to knapp them, etc...sort of sidesteps the whole point if you see what I mean.

:v

 

[jdixon]

At the risk of stepping on the third rail of discussing in-lines, yes, there are "muzzleloaders" out there that can be loaded with smokeless powder - one that recently came out is the Savage Model 10MLSS-II. An article found on it can be found at[url] http://www.gunblast.com/SavageML10.htm[/url]
Of course comparing this thing to a traditional muzzleloader is about the same as comparing a helicopter to a Frizzbe. This Savage as a fully sealed breech system, which makes it functional for the smokeless powders. As others have already said, this facet is what is missing from your Green Mountain barrel hypothesis.

 

[oldarmy]

The problem as I see it is.
Modern powders ate nitro based and don't actual go BOOM like black powder.
The stuff doens't-modern powder- burn very effectly when piled up and set on fire.
I had to pull some cases and couldn't tell what type it was. I chose to destory it rather then take a chance. better safe then sorry,
anyway
The stuff only works well in a sealed case with out the extra oxygen.
Even if you wanted to use it. I don't think it would work well.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't muzzle loading barrels and breach plugs made of "soft steel"? I am sure the manfactures build in some extra strenght and if you used a light load you could probably get away with it for awhile.
Until you have a catastrphic failure and remember where your face is going to be.

 

[John Taylor]

Many years ago there was a little black powder rifle in 22 caliber that would take a few grains of fast pistol powder. This rifle had a turn breach that was turned to the side and loaded with powder and an oversize ball of 25 caliber. The pressure used to swedge the ball to 22 caliber when firing made the powder burn at the right speed. Smokeless powder will not burn right without the proper pressure buildup. Black powder burns at the same speed wether in the barrel or on the grownd. I don't know the speeds for rifle powder but the burning speed of black powder for blasting is 200 feet per secound, dynomite is 2,000. Smokeless powder has retardents to controle the burning rate within a certain pressure. With a muzzle loader the pressure on ignition would not be close to a cartridge that has a crimped bullet so the burn rate could go up or down. Also most smokeless powders need a hotter fire to start, a percussion cap may not do the trick. A good inline with a 209 primer would probably work with smokeless using a fast burning pistol or shotgun powder but may not be consistant.I don't recommend this.
A slower burning rifle powder would require that the bullet be oversized and swedged to bore diameter to get enough pressure, like a jacketed bullet being forced into a rifled bore. This is where the pressure can get up to 52,000 PSI to make the powder burn right.. With a muzzle loader the ball would not be enough resistance to get the proper burn and it may get a falce start down the barrel then stop and act like a pluged bore when the rest of the powder gets going the barrel will blow up.

 

[F.G. Ford]

:shake:
The average nipple has four ( 4) or five ( 5 ) threads on it, and it is pointed at your head.
And then somebody wants to put powder behind it that will develop a" kazillion" pounds pressure.
Hmmmm interesting situation! Please send pictures.
Also please let us know which range you might be shooting at, sounds like fun!
Without being too hard on you or anybody, we have all tried things like this with stories to tell after, and in most cases, we survived to tell about it.
BUT it is a well found experience that modern smokless powder and flint or cap guns, is bad medicine, and somebody will get hurt.
If you want a magnum rifle, get one! Leave the front stuffers for us old codgers.
Best Regards. Old Ford

 

[BrownBear]

If you try it, be sure to have the video running. You might make some bucks putting it on the Red Green show, but I doubt you'd get enough to cover the medical bills if something goes wrong.

If you have the bucks or equipment to do your own proof testing or hire it done, then there might be room to debate. I don't, and therefore I'm willing to take GM's word on the proofing.

 

[walruskid1]

totally NO, not made for it. can you spell two words? bomb and dead.

 

[Bolink654]

I say go for it.
If I was setup for measureing smokeless, had a barrel I wasnt worried about destroying, and had a buncha types of smokeless to try, I'd try.

But I'd hide behind something and fire with string for a few hundred rounds, that goes without saying.

 

Why is it that there's always someone who wants to shoot smokeless in a BLACK POWDER gun and then goes to great lenths to justify it. :shake:

Is the motivation to prove that the manufacturer of the gun and the rest of the world is wrong?

 

[Claude Mathis]

Like everyone else, I've heard the ironclad rule about no smokeless in muzzleloaders for years. But, I'm sitting here thinking...

Ah, the beginning statement of every Darwin Award winner. :rotf:

Don't do it. We'd like to have you as a member for a long time.

 

[hcook]

Famous last words, "watch this". :nono:

 

[trent/OH]

Have you ever eaten A potato chip? Nope. You always get a handful.
IF a pinch of Red Dot powder would work in a ML (and that's doubtful), then somebody else would double it to make it work better. Then somebody wouldn't have Red Dot, and substitute 2400, then somebody would substitute a spoonful of Bullseye. And all of us at the virtual funeral would be looking at each other and wondering if those are tears of grief, or mirth.

Maybe if I loaded a Savage 10 with just a TINY bit of dynamite.....

 

[Hamourkiller]

If you plan to go forward please send personal info via PM so I can take out some life insurance for you with me as benficiary. Beats the Vegas odds! :grin:

:shake: DO NOT DO IT :shake:

 

[Slamfire]

Many years ago there was a little black powder rifle in 22 caliber that would take a few grains of fast pistol powder. This rifle had a turn breach that was turned to the side and loaded with powder and an oversize ball of 25 caliber. The pressure used to swedge the ball to 22 caliber when firing made the powder burn at the right speed. Smokeless powder will not burn right without the proper pressure buildup. Black powder burns at the same speed wether in the barrel or on the grownd. I don't know the speeds for rifle powder but the burning speed of black powder for blasting is 200 feet per secound, dynomite is 2,000. Smokeless powder has retardents to controle the burning rate within a certain pressure. With a muzzle loader the pressure on ignition would not be close to a cartridge that has a crimped bullet so the burn rate could go up or down. Also most smokeless powders need a hotter fire to start, a percussion cap may not do the trick. A good inline with a 209 primer would probably work with smokeless using a fast burning pistol or shotgun powder but may not be consistant.I don't recommend this.
A slower burning rifle powder would require that the bullet be oversized and swedged to bore diameter to get enough pressure, like a jacketed bullet being forced into a rifled bore. This is where the pressure can get up to 52,000 PSI to make the powder burn right.. With a muzzle loader the ball would not be enough resistance to get the proper burn and it may get a falce start down the barrel then stop and act like a pluged bore when the rest of the powder gets going the barrel will blow up.

Actually the rifle was labeled "Black Powder Only". The recommended load was 3 grains of FFFg, and the ball was a #4 American Standard buckshot, of .24" diameter. The turret had its own nipple formed on the end opposite the barrel, and used "Greenie Stick-em" caps held in place by a cover. I had one of them for my oldest boys. It was made by Buffalo Firearms and the designer was (Richard?) Linebaugh. My youngest made a pistol out of it, although no one knows why. We used Pyrodox "P", but of course the boys kept losin' the cap cover. :rotf:

 

[guncobbler]

Thanks for the post RLowe. As you can see from the responses this is a very conservative site. We didn't go thru Sturm and Drang over inlines for nothing. The responses above are to be expected and well reasoned. Some of it stems from basic conservatism which in not all a bad thing. I'm not so concerned about the danger or the tiptoe away from tradition your thoughts provoke as your basic impulse to do this. You want a low power plinking load that you can fire in your regular muzzle loader. Perhaps you want to do it so that you don't have so much clean up to do. Or maybe you would like to unlimber your ML and shoot in the basement when it's 40 below outside. In Montana it just might be 40 below tonight. I think there is merit to your motivation. It would be pretty cool to make a traditional ML air rifle like the ones used by L & Clark. Might not be all that difficult to make an adapter so that a sidelock could be fired by compressed air or CO2 cartridge. The idea came to me when I pushed a ball out of my Renegade with an air pump. I was amazed how many sheets of card board that RB shot thru. Guns are a fun world to play with. Be careful, keep good notes and share your experience. GC

 

[Charley Hart]

I shoot traditional BP and modern as well as reload. I never could understand the magnum load crowd. I can see if you are competing, but for just plinking. Go with a load that is light on you and your guns. Trust me showing off is putting 6 out of 6 shots through the bull at 25 yards. Not blowing your hand or gun up!

That said putting anything but BP or substitute in a BP barrel is just plain STUPID! If you want to be a idiot, then fine, but if you want to shoot and be sucessful do it RIGHT!

 

[pondoro]

Smokeless makes a lot more pressure than BP.

A blackpowder rifle has a hole in the side of the barrel for the primer or pan flash to ignite the main charge. This hole causes a huge stress rise and would be a great starting point for a fracture.

Most cartridge firearms have a complete circle for the barrel and a bolt or recoil shield that pushes forward on the back of the case. There is no pinhole in the barrel to interrupt the "hoop" stress. The firing pin hole is in a non-stressed plane in the bolt face. The stress in the bolt goes straight back towards the lugs.

I have seen pictures of the "muzzleloader" that was designed to fire smokless. It looks a lot more like a bolt action rifle in the breech area.

I would never try smokeless in any muzzleloader unless it was specifically designed for smokeless (and I see no reason to do that).