Short Started / Ringed / Bulged Barrels

[roundball]

In light of all the clamor over a short started / subsequently bulged barrel being unsafe, I placed a call to one of the top name ML barrel manufacturers and asked the question. They just got back from Friendship and returned my call:

"...No safety issue at all continuing to use a barrel that has been short started / bulged up near the muzzle...one of their own guys did that same thing on a woods walk a year ago, didn't hurt accuracy at all and he's continued to use his barrel right on like he always has..."

 

[FishDFly]

In light of all the clamor over a short started / subsequently bulged barrel being unsafe, I placed a call to one of the top name ML barrel manufacturers and asked the question. They just got back from Friendship and returned my call:

"...No safety issue at all continuing to use a barrel that has been short started / bulged up near the muzzle...one of their own guys did that same thing on a woods walk a year ago, didn't hurt accuracy at all and he's continued to use his barrel right on like he always has..."

Please share with us who was the top name ML barrel manufacturer quoted and the person who provided the information, inquiring minds are really interested to know.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I'm thinking it is hard to paint with such a broad stroke. How bulged? What barrel metal? Wall thickness? Etc., etc.

The bulge you get short staring a 120 gr load is probably not the bulge you get with a 60 gr load.

As I recall the "worry wart determinate" was if you only feel it when loading you're probably OK, but a bulge visible on the outside flat to the naked eye was too serious for continued service.

 

[roundball]

The bulge you get short staring a 120 gr load is probably not the bulge you get with a 60 gr load.

Related question:
Assuming the ball being ejected is a safety valve of sorts...and 60grns creates enough pressure to cause a bulge and eject it...would additional powder above 60grns be a factor?

 

[roundball]

As I recall the "worry wart determinate" was if you only feel it when loading you're probably OK, but a bulge visible on the outside flat to the naked eye was too serious for continued service.

Related question:
If a barrel was significantly bulged to be visible to the naked eye, wouldn't there be gas blow-by past the PRB at that point for every shot there after...and subsequently no pressure concerns from that point forward?

 

[hounddog]

Roundball, I must agree with your conclusion, on the blowby. In reality that rifle bbl has a itty bitty jug choke in it now. People have been shooting jug choked smoothbores for years with no problems. essentially the bulge is more cosmetic than a true hazard given the quality of todays bbl steel used. I am glad the EXPERTS agreed with me, If you recall on the previous thread mentioned I was the first to point out that most bbls were still usable even when bulged, basedon my over 40 years experience gunsmithing. I feel vindicated now , them guys talked that bulge thing to death. It nice to know some people out there will admit that us old farts might actually know what we are talking about. Its up to the younger ones to figure out if they have enough sence to listen. We acctually get one right every once in awhile HEHAW, yours hounddog as usual asleep on the porch.

 

[roundball]

In reality that rifle bbl has a itty bitty jug choke in it now.

That's exactly the way I see it...

1) There was a momentary obstruction which briefly caused a pressure jam;

2) The metal stretched and the ball ejected;

3) Nothing of consequence happened beyond that;

4) And now the conditions towards the muzzle have changed so the area is less sensitive to pressure because of the slightly enlarged diameter...like an expansion chamber in a jug choke;

5) As a result, from now on the area shouldn't even be subjected to pressure as high as normal due to blowby in the enlarged area.


I can't find any logical reason why it would be a problem...but never-the-less, I went after a heavy duty verification by putting it straight to one of our best top barrel manufacturers who told me no problem...and there was no dancing, no conditions, no scenarios, no exceptions, etc...simply "no problem", plus a reference to one of their own having done it a year ago and has kept right on shooting it for the past year.
So speaking for myself, if I ever have a short start situation like that happen, I'll check/verify accuracy and keep right on using it.


In the meantime, actual fact based comments that fly in the face of the above and the barrel maker's position on the matter are more than welcome.

 

[tg]

"actual fact based"

You gonna cut the volume of this forum in half if ya require that kind of answers :shake:

 

[Tony Logan]

Good post Roundball, Crap happens, I know of a 45 that has been short started three times, with 60 g FFF. It has no bulge and no accuracy problems. If I ever do have an accuracy problem due to my stupidity, I am glad the fix is as close as Ed Rayl.

 

[Zonie]

Well, some would say this isn't "fact based" but in my opinion if the bulged barrel shoots good groups it is probably OK. Especially if the bulge is at the muzzle where the pressures during firing are greatly reduced.

That said, I'll now give a "fact based" comment. :grin:

A number of years ago I was visiting a pawn shop and lo and behold! They had a CVA Mountain Rifle!

I looked it over briefly and it seemed to be in good condition so I bought it.

Taking it to the range I found that it couldn't hit a bull in the butt at 50 yards! I'm talking about loose 12 inch groups!

I tried several different powder charges and they didn't help.

Examining the .012 thick patches I was using showed them to be blowing apart so I switched to some .018 thick pillow ticking.
While loading I noticed they started tight for the first 5 or 6 inches and then loosened up, only to return to tight after being rammed another 8 or 10 inches. All indications of a bulged barrel.

These .018 thick patches didn't improve the accuracy and after finding some of them I saw they too were being blown apart.

I should note here that visually the barrel looked fine from the outside. It sure wasn't fine from the inside though.

Following this bad experiance with a bulged barrel I ALWAYS check the bore of a used muzzleloader with a tight fitting oiled patch on a jag before I buy it.
Any sign of looseness as I'm ramming it down the bore will automatically make it a NO SALE.

 

[rmark]

While I wouldn't want to buy a gun with a bulged barrel, that's a different question from whether a bulge near the muzzle is safe to shoot. My only experience was with an 8mm mauser with a bulge about a foot from the muzzle - accurate enough at 50 yds, which was a long as the available range was.

 

[mbokie]

Well this is great news.

I've already ordered the new barrel, so I can't turn back on that. Already have plans for the bulged barrel.

but now I have something to shoot until I finish my build or get the new barrel.

That was very good of you to make the call. I was already gettin' the shakes.

:hatsoff:

 

[Stumpkiller]

. . .

2) The metal stretched and the ball ejected;

3) Nothing of consequence happened beyond that;

4) And now the conditions towards the muzzle have changed so the area is less sensitive to pressure because of the slightly enlarged diameter...like an expansion chamber in a jug choke;

5) As a result, from now on the area shouldn't even be subjected to pressure as high as normal due to blowby in the enlarged area.

. . .

But what happens when that ball passes the "jug" and the tighter restriction causes the pressure to jump - right at the spot where the bulge has possibly weakened the barrel?

I don't have facts to draw on, as, by luck or providence, have not bulged a barrel . . . yet. But I sure would feel more confident using one if it had been through some kind of NDI (non-destructive inspection - ultrasound or flux-dye, whatever) to verify the barrel wall isn't cracked along the sharp features of the rifling instead of "merely" bulged.

What happens if you repeat the problem that bulged it in the first place? Do you get a second strike or start paying in flesh?

 

[roundball]

I don't have facts to draw on

Neither do I...and its exactly why I posed this situation to a well known barrel maker who sees and deals with barrel related matters full time as an occupation. And as I already said his reply was not conditional...he didn't go into any 'what if's', etc.

Bottom line to anyone is that they need to decide and do whatever they're most comfortable with doing...I've already said what I personally would do...you can do what you personally want to do, and so on.

All I've done is pose some questions to try and get us to think, and I went the extra mile to gather a response from a top name barrel maker and shared that back here with everyone.

 

[necchi]

"I went the extra mile to gather a response from a top name barrel maker and shared that back here with everyone."
Whom you have yet to name.

"he didn't go into any 'what if's', etc."
And he probably didn't have time to get into any of it, there ARE variables that have been layed out in this topic that haven't been answered.
Saying every "Bulged" barrel is safe to shoot is kind of a blanket statment I'd be very wary of.

Sure, jump off that high bridge,, everyone else does,, And I can prove that one guy said it's safe to make the jump, we even have one guy that made the jump and is still alive today as further proof,,
No thank's, This isn't advise I'd pander to new shooters :shake:
I'd seek MUCH advise and experiance with each individual case of a bulged barrel.

 

[roundball]

"I went the extra mile to gather a response from a top name barrel maker and shared that back here with everyone."
Whom you have yet to name.

"he didn't go into any 'what if's', etc."
And he probably didn't have time to get into any of it, there ARE variables that have been layed out in this topic that haven't been answered.
Saying every "Bulged" barrel is safe to shoot is kind of a blanket statment I'd be very wary of.

Sure, jump off that high bridge,, everyone else does,, And I can prove that one guy said it's safe to make the jump, we even have one guy that made the jump and is still alive today as further proof,,
:shake:

Your negative attitude is your signature so no surprise there.

I didn't / won't name any manufacturer under conditions like this...but I have repeatedly made it very clear it was one of our top name brand barrel makers.

So instead of being caustic, try to connect the dots and realize..."oh...wait a minute...I can just pick up the phone and call them too..."
And since it's you, I'll make it even simpler for you: Getz, GM, Rice, Rayl, Goodien, etc, etc.


So here's your "rolling eyes" right back at you

:shake: :shake: :shake:

 

[necchi]

A mind set of caution and a sceptical veiw of blanket wide statements that cover all circumstances based on a single veiw of a posted single opinion, isn't a negative attitude. It's realism.
I'm not an Optimist, I'm not a Pessimist.
I will admit to being a Realist.
I'll probably continue to post different views for the consideration of members when those posts are of a single limited veiw point. A Devils advotate one might say, an oppertunity for members to see all sides of an issue esp when it comes to saftey.

FWIW, in a recent topic I advised publicly a personal friend that is also a member here to shoot his bulged barrel. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/260715/post/1038180/hl//fromsearch/1/

As far as calling? I could probably get several different opinions depending on how I layed out the circumstances of the buldge, GM? Really?

 

[Dphar]

In light of all the clamor over a short started / subsequently bulged barrel being unsafe, I placed a call to one of the top name ML barrel manufacturers and asked the question. They just got back from Friendship and returned my call:

"...No safety issue at all continuing to use a barrel that has been short started / bulged up near the muzzle...one of their own guys did that same thing on a woods walk a year ago, didn't hurt accuracy at all and he's continued to use his barrel right on like he always has..."

Everyone has different levels of accuracy they will accept.
My question is not "is it safe" but "why would I want to shoot a (now) defective barrel?"
I don't like tight and loose spots in a barrel and loading one with a goose egg in it would be a constant reminder the the barrel was messed up.

Dan

 

[roundball]

My question is not "is it safe" but "why would I want to shoot a (now) defective barrel?"

Because the individual who originally posted a thread about shooting his short started ball had nothing else to shoot and it would be after hunting season before he could get it fixed/replaced.

Got me thinking about the whole subject of barrel condition after such an event, started asking questions here trying to really understand if / how much risk there might actually be, etc.

So far, it appears that the barrel might still be usable, and if it was me, I'd do some range testing to see if it was OK / accurate, and maybe not have to miss hunting season.


As always, others mileage may vary...

 

[hanshi]

It has been my experience that ringed barrels don't necessarily lose accuracy. This is partially based on the reports of others as well.