Shot size, and type.

[Britsmoothy]

Yes, steel absolutely creates higher pressures. And on top of that, 1 1/2 oz of lead shot was a definitive proof load in the 1800's for a smooth bore 20. You are shooting over proof loads every single shot. It's no wonder everything has warning labels on it nowadays.

I don't think you've got this quite right.
Black powder will only give so much. It is limited. You can increase the payload or workload and pressure will rise but not in an unlimited fashion unlike smokeless nitro type powders.
Black powder deflagulates. It simply burns. Put more in front of it and it burns slower.

Countless tests have been conducted. Winchester tried blowing up their rifles with a barrel full of bullets . The only time black powder can cause harm is when a cavity or void is created.
As long as all the components, including the powder all move off as one no dangerous condition will arise.
Eventually performance drops off with more load added making it impractical.
A well known and well qualified member on this forum conducted many an experiment with 2oz loads in his 20g.
By rights according to the common mantra oft spouted my .45 smoothrifle should not be loaded with more than a 1/4oz of shot!
Believe me, it works perfectly with 3/4oz and on the finest powder I can get!

Oh and steel does not produce higher pressure. Fuel generates pressure not shot.

 

[tenngun]

I never lambasted you about your 10g. I will gladly drop 2oz on mine.
I also have no issue with 1&1/2 oz of anything in a 20g muzzleloader of good build.

I was going to say Dualist 54 has a tad of experience and shoots 2oz lead in his .62
I don’t know if steel would decrease or raise pressures or not. I don’t see how since energy requreid to move weight, er mass is pretty universal.
I wouldn’t want to trust a gun with an Oz if I thought it could fail with two

 

[Brokennock]

Someone earlier said that an ounce of steel shot, an ounce of lead shot, or an ounce of feathers is all the same,,,,, NO it is not. We are measuring our ounce by volume, not by weight. An ounce of steel shot by volume would weigh less than an ounce of lead by volume.

This would leave me to think pressures would be lower with steel because it should be be easier to get moving. Unless the fact that the shot column doesn't compress like lead somehow negates this.

 

[DuncNZ]

7s for me as i only shoot birds over a pointed dog.

There is something special in shooting birds with or over a good bird dog , I just will not go out shooting with out my English Springer Spaniels .

 

[tenngun]

Someone earlier said that an ounce of steel shot, an ounce of lead shot, or an ounce of feathers is all the same,,,,, NO it is not. We are measuring our ounce by volume, not by weight. An ounce of steel shot by volume would weigh less than an ounce of lead by volume.

This would leave me to think pressures would be lower with steel because it should be be easier to get moving. Unless the fact that the shot column doesn't compress like lead somehow negates this.

I’ve no experience with steel shot. Do you pour it via the same measure? 70 grains of powder per volume pours about an ounce of shot. Steel by volume would be about 2/3 ounce.
Do you need to decrease your charge so you don’t blow your pattern?
Two ounces by volume would be a tad less then an ounce and a half, that’s not too unusual for a twenty bore.

 

[tenngun]

Just for giggles at an event I hammered two ball flat for tourist. Then cut in to little squares. It busted a clay without problem for the tourist. ( hung on a target frame not flying through the air)
A ball is about 320 grains, about 3/4 ounce and two a ounce and a half.

 

[megasupermagnum]

After thinking about it, I should not have been so harsh. I have no business telling anyone what they should or should not use.

That said, sometime this winter I'll take the pressure trace II out with some blackpowder. Some of you might be really shocked at the pressures you are making. I'm not saying you are going to die, but do you really want to be shooting higher pressures than modern shotgun shells in a barrel made of steel that is often argued if it is adequate blackpowder gun metal to begin with?

I wouldn't want to trust a gun that couldn't handle a double charge either, but am I really going to start shooting 3 1/4 oz loads in a 10 gauge? The saving grace with the smaller bores is that they will handle a higher pressure. Britsmooth mentioned a 45 caliber. While not a muzzleloader, a bunch of tests have been done on 45-70 rifles. With a 405gr bullet and 70gr blackpowder, they generate around 20,000 psi. That's just less than 15/16 ounce. No I don't think a 45 caliber is going to let go if you use 7/8 or 1 oz shot loads, but they most certainly are up there in pressure.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I just think , and I have said it before, folk get real hung up on pressure values.
What they forget is the time a barrel has to endure that pressure! It is nano seconds!

It would be very difficult for a barrel to go on an hours test and contain some of the modern high pressures generated for 1 hour. A nano second, easy.
You can shoot a machine-gun until the barrel glows. Why doesn't it burst, it is being softened no?
Why doesn't a nipple blow out of heavily loaded muzzleloaders?
I'll tell you why, it has not got time for the pressure you all are very very concerned with to act on it. Couple that with the fact that something sat on top of the powder has less resistance than the nipple or barrel wall and is moving pressure is dropping rapidly.

Pressure is good, nothing wrong with pressure, I like pressure, it is useful.
What does upset me about pressure though is when someone comes along and says a value is to much!
How the heck does he or she know?? It is all assumption! Scare mongering. They propell their fearfull world on others in order to justify their own theories, rational or beliefs.

How many times have I asked for test data showing 4f blows guns up.
Still it does not materialise!
How can it be implied 18,000psi is ok but 20,000 is suddenly bad, or any other values one wishes to use, its completely a nonsensical way to determine anything factual or relative to anything real, like safety etc!
No, I like pressure, give me pressure in my muzzleloaders, things fall out of the sky better with pressure, yes, I want pressure.

No then, the guy that shot the ducks with his steel shot.
What was the penertration like on the ducks? And please, was the steel loads weighed? You mentioned the increase in pellet count, I assume therefore you weighed the loads?

 

[tenngun]

I just think , and I have said it before, folk get real hung up on pressure values.
What they forget is the time a barrel has to endure that pressure! It is nano seconds!

It would be very difficult for a barrel to go on an hours test and contain some of the modern high pressures generated for 1 hour. A nano second, easy.
You can shoot a machine-gun until the barrel glows. Why doesn't it burst, it is being softened no?
Why doesn't a nipple blow out of heavily loaded muzzleloaders?
I'll tell you why, it has not got time for the pressure you all are very very concerned with to act on it. Couple that with the fact that something sat on top of the powder has less resistance than the nipple or barrel wall and is moving pressure is dropping rapidly.

Pressure is good, nothing wrong with pressure, I like pressure, it is useful.
What does upset me about pressure though is when someone comes along and says a value is to much!
How the heck does he or she know?? It is all assumption! Scare mongering. They propell their fearfull world on others in order to justify their own theories, rational or beliefs.

How many times have I asked for test data showing 4f blows guns up.
Still it does not materialise!
How can it be implied 18,000psi is ok but 20,000 is suddenly bad, or any other values one wishes to use, its completely a nonsensical way to determine anything factual or relative to anything real, like safety etc!
No, I like pressure, give me pressure in my muzzleloaders, things fall out of the sky better with pressure, yes, I want pressure.

No then, the guy that shot the ducks with his steel shot.
What was the penertration like on the ducks? And please, was the steel loads weighed? You mentioned the increase in pellet count, I assume therefore you weighed the loads?

I know Sam Falada ran test on his rifles with God-Awful charges. In .58 over three hundred grains of 3f and four 500 grain minies over a 1/4 pound of lead, and the guns shot without any damage they could find miching the barrel.
The only way they could blow a barrel was leave an obstruction in the bore.
What would a X-ray have shown on these barrels? Maybe micro cracks. Seedlings of destruction? How long could barrels take that sort of punishment?
I do recall a fellow talking about touchhole liners. Many are in the 1/4 -28 range.
1/4” screw represents about 1/6 of a square inch. If you get 10000 psi that means a touchhole liner is holding about 1600 pounds of pressure would you suspend a 1600 pound weight from a 1/4 inch bolt?
Lyman did LUP and CUP, but stated there was no way to convert that to PSI. Or even convert from one to the other.

 

[jackpine54]

When I used steel shot my loads were weighed. I then found the volume equivalent and loaded by volume. So 185 or so pellets of #2 steel in my 1.5 ounce loads.
My best load was adequate on early season large Canada geese 20-25 yards and closer. About the same thing on the few mallards and wood duck I shot with it.
I was trying to improve patterns through my cylinder choke and steel did that. The catch for me is that improved patterns are great, but the steel shot loses energy before I can take advantage of it. Larger steel shot would likely help, but in the 20 I am limited by bore size.
I goose hunted with the fusil 6 days this fall. Loaded with #2 bismuth. No mud, no rain and in a frame blind. Hard to load it in a layout blind. We take some military vets and kids out on goose hunts. You should see the faces when I pull out a flintlock FDC. I go through a lot of powder on those days!
During most of our 105 day goose season I used an unmentionable 10g with BBB or 12g with #1. I believe the larger shot is better all around for large geese.

Hope that helps.