Shredded Patches – Suggestions on what to do?

[Bebop Cowboy]

Problem Resolved!
Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions on possibly how to solve my shredded/burned up patches issue. I am pretty sure I have solved the puzzle, thanks to some comments from people on this forum that started me in the right direction and a couple of YouTubers. The main issue is the way I was making my BP. I have been using a Harbor Freight rock tumbler/ball mill to mill the powder and the tumbling jars are made of rubber. When milling the powder some of the rubber from the jars gets worn off and integrates with the BP. Apparently, the added rubber from the tumbling jars causes a higher burning temperature or some other phenomena, thereby burning and shredding the patches. The added rubber also causes excess fouling.

I have lined my tumbling jars so that nothing is wearing off into the powder during the milling process and the BP I am making now works very good with probably less fouling than my GOEX and the recovered patches look as they should. In fact, many of the patches look like they could be used again.

One lesson I learned is that I was not very careful in recovering patches when shooting GOEX and my home-made BP, so I thought I was getting the same shredded/burned patches shooting GOEX and my home-made BP. When in fact that was not the case. When I was using GOEX the patches looked good as they should and when I was using the home-made BP they were shredded and burned. If I had been more careful in recovering my patches, I likely could have solved the problem much quicker. Lesson learned!

It did sound like your BP was on Nitro!!! Good to hear that your problem was resolved. Happy shooting***

 

[whaleyisp]

In the attached photo are some of the most recent patches I have shot with my Kibler Colonial Rifle which has a 50 caliber Green Mountain barrel. Here is a little history and then my question.

These patches where shot using 80 grains of my home-made BP which is in the 2F-3F grain size, patch material is denim .022” measured with digital caliper and cut off at the muzzle, lubed with Ballistol/Water 5 to 1 mixture, balls were Hornady .490. These are the best-looking patches I have shot with this rifle in just over 100 rounds fired.

I started using my cast .490 balls and have used some Hornady .490 and .495 balls and have used several different patches .010”, .015” .018” sizes made of drill, ticking and other 100% cotton material. I have used Wonderlube, Bore Butter, Spit, and Ballistol straight and different water/Ballistol mixtures. All of these ball and patch and lube combinations have given me completely shredded and destroyed patches, so much so the patches were not recognizable as patches but just shred pieces of cloth. I have used Goex 2F as well as my home-made BP. I have scrubbed the barrel a total of about 250 in and out times with Maroon Scotchbrite. I have attached a .490 ball to a ball extraction screw tip and pushed it down the bore with a .015” lubed patch and extracted it to see if there was any damage to the patch by rough rifling and while I can see rifling marks on the patch there is no damage to it.

I have been shooting traditional muzzle loading firearms for over 50 years. One Lyman Great Plains Rifle, flintlock, Two T/C Hawken style rifles (percussion), a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle (percussion), Traditions Hawken Woodsman (percussion) and several BP revolvers (all percussion) and various other rifles and pistols (percussion and flintlock) owned by friends. I have never seen patches destroyed like they have been with this rifle. I have seen some undersized patches that have been burned through, but nothing like this.

I am also quite concerned about accuracy, because I can get no consistent grouping like my other rifles. So, my question is - What do I need to do to fix this? I would appreciate any suggestions to remedy this.

I am currently having same issues with a .54 Green Mountain Barrel. It has extremely deep rifling. I loaded and pulled and found the the patch is being cut at the loading. I am going to try coning the barrel as I have already scotch bright and steel wooled it, and it has improved.

 

[Art Caputo]

I would give Jim Kibler a call. Results from my GM 50 cal. barrel below… You may have a problem barrel. My 58 ,and my buddies 54, both Kibler GM barrels, give comparable results with little effort.

 

[oldwood]

Last week sighted in a new flint long rifle with .50 cal. G.Mtn. barrel. .490 hand cast balls , Lee mold. , Patching was .015 labeled , compression micrometer measurement , (actual thickness) , ,013 muslin from Eastern Main Shooting Supplies. 80 Gr. FFFG old metal can , Dupont powder. Patching looked good enough to almost be reused after firing. No cuts , no rips , just dirty. Lubricant was the grease in the yellow tube.???? , ordered from Log Cabin M/L Shop , lodi , Ohio. . Use this grease exclusively , but apply it then rub ALL the excess off before loading. Since we were filing the front sight off , we fired about 14 shots 'till the balls hit at the correct height , on target at 50 yds.. We wire brushed , and wiped the bore between shots to keep fouling consistent , shot to shot. . Air temp. was about 28 deg. F.. . We finished cold , tired as two old farts get , in this weather.

 

[Pioneer flinter]

Problem Resolved!
Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions on possibly how to solve my shredded/burned up patches issue. I am pretty sure I have solved the puzzle, thanks to some comments from people on this forum that started me in the right direction and a couple of YouTubers. The main issue is the way I was making my BP. I have been using a Harbor Freight rock tumbler/ball mill to mill the powder and the tumbling jars are made of rubber. When milling the powder some of the rubber from the jars gets worn off and integrates with the BP. Apparently, the added rubber from the tumbling jars causes a higher burning temperature or some other phenomena, thereby burning and shredding the patches. The added rubber also causes excess fouling.

I have lined my tumbling jars so that nothing is wearing off into the powder during the milling process and the BP I am making now works very good with probably less fouling than my GOEX and the recovered patches look as they should. In fact, many of the patches look like they could be used again.

One lesson I learned is that I was not very careful in recovering patches when shooting GOEX and my home-made BP, so I thought I was getting the same shredded/burned patches shooting GOEX and my home-made BP. When in fact that was not the case. When I was using GOEX the patches looked good as they should and when I was using the home-made BP they were shredded and burned. If I had been more careful in recovering my patches, I likely could have solved the problem much quicker. Lesson learned!

what did you line your containers with?

 

[JGH45]

what did you line your containers with?

I lined them with PVC sewer pipe 4". I had to cut a piece out so it would fit. I covered the bottom and lid also with sheet metal. I also glued 4 strips inside the sewer pipe to interrupt the smoothness of the pipe. I now have been able to cut off 4 hours of milling time and get the same results.

 

[smo]

I am currently having same issues with a .54 Green Mountain Barrel. It has extremely deep rifling. I loaded and pulled and found the the patch is being cut at the loading. I am going to try coning the barrel as I have already scotch bright and steel wooled it, and it has improved.

I’ve owned a couple of GM barrels that did the same thing..
After shooting 100 rounds or so thru them it stopped tearing the patching while loading.
The edges of the rifling is extremely sharp in some GM barrels it seems.

 

[superkodiaksteiner]

I would give Jim Kibler a call. Results from my GM 50 cal. barrel below… You may have a problem barrel. My 58 ,and my buddies 54, both Kibler GM barrels, give comparable results with little effort. View attachment 185491

Great accuracy and what I am looking for in my patches when I shoot.

 

[Ballshooter]

Try 45 to 50 grains of corn meal on top of the 80 grains of powder and a thin shot card. Problem solved. Your welcome.

 

[flntlokr]

In the attached photo are some of the most recent patches I have shot with my Kibler Colonial Rifle which has a 50 caliber Green Mountain barrel. Here is a little history and then my question.

These patches where shot using 80 grains of my home-made BP which is in the 2F-3F grain size, patch material is denim .022” measured with digital caliper and cut off at the muzzle, lubed with Ballistol/Water 5 to 1 mixture, balls were Hornady .490. These are the best-looking patches I have shot with this rifle in just over 100 rounds fired.

I started using my cast .490 balls and have used some Hornady .490 and .495 balls and have used several different patches .010”, .015” .018” sizes made of drill, ticking and other 100% cotton material. I have used Wonderlube, Bore Butter, Spit, and Ballistol straight and different water/Ballistol mixtures. All of these ball and patch and lube combinations have given me completely shredded and destroyed patches, so much so the patches were not recognizable as patches but just shred pieces of cloth. I have used Goex 2F as well as my home-made BP. I have scrubbed the barrel a total of about 250 in and out times with Maroon Scotchbrite. I have attached a .490 ball to a ball extraction screw tip and pushed it down the bore with a .015” lubed patch and extracted it to see if there was any damage to the patch by rough rifling and while I can see rifling marks on the patch there is no damage to it.

I have been shooting traditional muzzle loading firearms for over 50 years. One Lyman Great Plains Rifle, flintlock, Two T/C Hawken style rifles (percussion), a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle (percussion), Traditions Hawken Woodsman (percussion) and several BP revolvers (all percussion) and various other rifles and pistols (percussion and flintlock) owned by friends. I have never seen patches destroyed like they have been with this rifle. I have seen some undersized patches that have been burned through, but nothing like this.

I am also quite concerned about accuracy, because I can get no consistent grouping like my other rifles. So, my question is - What do I need to do to fix this? I would appreciate any suggestions td a burn-out with soapy water lube

Looks like a patch failure to me. Maybe some % synthetic in the denim. I use unbleached 100% cotton duck, and have never had a burn-out with either soapy water or grease lube.

 

[oldwood]

All the G.M. rifle barrels in .50 cal. , use .490 r/balls , and take a .012 patch , lubed , and use 80 gr. black. "cause I'm lazy , I buy .015 premade patches , that actually mike .012 with a compression mic. If using grease lube , , apply the goo , then lay the patch on a hard surface , and push the excess goo off the patch before loading. Has worked for many moons for me. I'm a grease hole fan , and the goo lube keeps the prelubed patches in the hole as you need them.

 

[Joemolf]

Easy 1st call Jim ,he made it ! I can tell you a easy fix with instant results in the mean time I use a 54 cal wad
(Dura Felt) over the powder in your 50 RB shooter . It is like insurance in case your patch is not up to the task it will seal better in case your pushing to fast or you picked the wrong thickness /type of material . In fact do that 1st before bothering Jim and see if that takes care of your problem and I know for a fact you will get more speed and less gas cutting /blow by and any Chrono will demonstrate that and better targets for sure ! Some will complain
it's a bother /not PC but (humbug) it works and the squirrel in the pot proves it /Ed

Jim didn’t make the powder or the patches; one of those things are the problem. I have not read the entire post. Have you tried commercial powder and other patches? These types of issues can be very frustrating. Good luck!!

 

[Rob M.]

Problem Resolved!
Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions on possibly how to solve my shredded/burned up patches issue. I am pretty sure I have solved the puzzle, thanks to some comments from people on this forum that started me in the right direction and a couple of YouTubers. The main issue is the way I was making my BP. I have been using a Harbor Freight rock tumbler/ball mill to mill the powder and the tumbling jars are made of rubber. When milling the powder some of the rubber from the jars gets worn off and integrates with the BP. Apparently, the added rubber from the tumbling jars causes a higher burning temperature or some other phenomena, thereby burning and shredding the patches. The added rubber also causes excess fouling.

I have lined my tumbling jars so that nothing is wearing off into the powder during the milling process and the BP I am making now works very good with probably less fouling than my GOEX and the recovered patches look as they should. In fact, many of the patches look like they could be used again.

One lesson I learned is that I was not very careful in recovering patches when shooting GOEX and my home-made BP, so I thought I was getting the same shredded/burned patches shooting GOEX and my home-made BP. When in fact that was not the case. When I was using GOEX the patches looked good as they should and when I was using the home-made BP they were shredded and burned. If I had been more careful in recovering my patches, I likely could have solved the problem much quicker. Lesson learned!

Thanks for the info ....now I have to figure out how to fix my tumbler , I have the same one ....D@mn , appreciate the info , glad you figured it all out !

 

[Mike in FL]

Thanks for the info ....now I have to figure out how to fix my tumbler , I have the same one ....D@mn , appreciate the info , glad you figured it all out !

Well done. I admire anyone who can make their own stuff. That puts you a long way from relying on commercial productions and shortages. I'm guessing, but I'd say you have become skilled in other means of self reliance.

 

[Rob M.]

Well done. I admire anyone who can make their own stuff. That puts you a long way from relying on commercial productions and shortages. I'm guessing, but I'd say you have become skilled in other means of self reliance.

Thank you ... I built my house and gun shop with my own two hands , off grid , no running water , grow and hunt for my food , wood heat , etc. etc. Always wanted to live like our ancestors did couple hundred years ago . Making my own smoothbore guns and black powder just goes right along with that life style . I love it . When the " no black powder " available scare came on ....never bothered me one bit ....so was pretty neat . Didnt want to use a tumbler to make powder being a modern tool , I tried , it was d@mn slow , BUT had to get a tumbler and MAN ....made all the difference ! D@mn fast now !! 20 hr. tumble per half pound . Any who ....take care bud

 

[M. De Land]

In the attached photo are some of the most recent patches I have shot with my Kibler Colonial Rifle which has a 50 caliber Green Mountain barrel. Here is a little history and then my question.

These patches where shot using 80 grains of my home-made BP which is in the 2F-3F grain size, patch material is denim .022” measured with digital caliper and cut off at the muzzle, lubed with Ballistol/Water 5 to 1 mixture, balls were Hornady .490. These are the best-looking patches I have shot with this rifle in just over 100 rounds fired.

I started using my cast .490 balls and have used some Hornady .490 and .495 balls and have used several different patches .010”, .015” .018” sizes made of drill, ticking and other 100% cotton material. I have used Wonderlube, Bore Butter, Spit, and Ballistol straight and different water/Ballistol mixtures. All of these ball and patch and lube combinations have given me completely shredded and destroyed patches, so much so the patches were not recognizable as patches but just shred pieces of cloth. I have used Goex 2F as well as my home-made BP. I have scrubbed the barrel a total of about 250 in and out times with Maroon Scotchbrite. I have attached a .490 ball to a ball extraction screw tip and pushed it down the bore with a .015” lubed patch and extracted it to see if there was any damage to the patch by rough rifling and while I can see rifling marks on the patch there is no damage to it.

I have been shooting traditional muzzle loading firearms for over 50 years. One Lyman Great Plains Rifle, flintlock, Two T/C Hawken style rifles (percussion), a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle (percussion), Traditions Hawken Woodsman (percussion) and several BP revolvers (all percussion) and various other rifles and pistols (percussion and flintlock) owned by friends. I have never seen patches destroyed like they have been with this rifle. I have seen some undersized patches that have been burned through, but nothing like this.

I am also quite concerned about accuracy, because I can get no consistent grouping like my other rifles. So, my question is - What do I need to do to fix this? I would appreciate any suggestions to remedy this.

One of my .45 cal GM barrels (under hammer match rifle) did the same until I lead slug lapped the bore with 400 lapping grit which help cure the problem. I think is was just sharp land corners from rifling. It finally stopped shredding patches after the lapping and about 100 shots and has given no trouble since.
These GM barrels are some of the most uniform in bore diameter I have ever checked using plug gauges but do seem to have very sharp land corners when new.

 

[Sun City]

Use Goex 2F powder!