shrinking the group

[bulletman]

I thought I would start this back under this new topic incase some one in the future wants to find it for reference. It looks like I wil need alot more info on this topic.
Saturday I ended up with clover leaf groups with a few flyers out to 2 inches, now today same load same everything, they are all over the place out to 6 inches. Wondering if the barrel being hot helps, Today after about 10 shots seeing how screwed up they were I just stopped for the day.Also if taking the barrel out every time for cleaning may have something to do with it, maybe being seated a little different each time ? Also, I never wiegh the balls, dont know if that makes a difference out to 6 niches or not.

 

[sabotloader]

I honestly can not say I know your problem, I will suggest that the barrel channel could very well be a problem. A friend of mine swears up and down just the difference in which way he puts his wedge in makes a diffence in his. Another person will tell you the ram rod in or out can make a difference. And you know some days are just like that. I am sorry i am no help - but I do know what you mean....

 

[bulletman]

As soon as I read your response post, I looked at my rifle, LOL, the wedge pins are swapped , not the usuall setup, I will check it out tomorow. I do have a Russian M44 that does make difference if the bayonett is extended or not. Thats why I was wondering, If the barrel isnt put back exactly the same. Does the barrel need to be tight ?, like finger tight pushing in the pins or tight as in tap them in with a hammer or mallet ?, mine right now, I just squeeze the barrel and the wood together and I can push the wedge pins in by hand.

 

[Zonie]

I have a theory about the reason for the "first shot" always (or almost always) being a "flyer".
My theory is if you remove the barrel from the gun and re-install it, it will never be in the same place it was before you removed it. When you fire the first shot, the recoil reseats it where it should be, so all of the remaining shots will hit in a tighter group.

If this theory is sound, by removing the barrel after each shot, you are starting from zero again so shot placement will be unpredictable.

It is just a theory and yes, it doesn't explain the "first shot flyers" experianced by other shooters who do not dis-assemble their gun when they clean it.

 

[sabotloader]

I am certainly not the most knowlegeble person in the world on this subject, but I will suggest to you what I strive for in my 4 sidelocks. I do want the barrel snug, I actually would like it to have the same seat and pressure every time I put it back together. 2 of my Hawkens (replica's) I have bedded the barrel to help make sure everything returns to square one

If you read Zonie's post I would be willing to take bets his theory is correct in about 95% of the cases the other 5% I would chalk up to a nice cleaned well oiled and maintained barrel, that just came out of the gun rack.

Another thing that has affected me is - is your barrel channel sealed? can water/moister/humidity get into the wood and cause swelling, you already know temperature, especially off a hot barrel can move things in wood stock and the results on the target are multiplied.

Good luck - I just got back in from shooting my A&H - I surely wish muzzleloading had discovered me sooner, gosh what a blast... All those years of shooting centerfire could have been spent much wiser

 

[cayugad]

How the barrel is set will make a difference. I always set the wedge pin from left to right. That way the biggest part of the wedge is in the heal of my left hand when I shoot.

If you shoot the rifle and it is throwing the first shot, try a fowling shot. I drop about 40 grain of powder down it and a bore button and touch it off. Then I run patches just like I was shooting at the range.

Also when shooting if you feel the barrel heating up, then set the rifle down. Swab the barrel in the mean time as it cools. A hot barrel will make a difference in where the next shell will hit in "some rifles."

Some other things I found that can cause a spray effect is, are you loading the same way? Many times people say they loaded the same charge and same projectile, but have you ever noticed how sometimes the projectile feels different when you are seating it. On some do you have to force it down while on others they slide down? The amount of ramrod pressure, all of that can make a difference. Also are you loading pre cut patches or cutting them off a strip. A lot of people like pre-cut. I will not use them personally.

When I am testing new loads I keep a journal. In that I list the weather conditions, the wind directions, the temp, all that kind of stuff. All of that can make a difference.

The last thing I would check is how you are holding the rifle prior to shooting. By this I mean are you resting the forearm of the rifle on the rest or are you resting the barrel? The barrel I was told is a no no...

 

[musketman]

Here's a trick, you can mark your wegde pin(s) top front; top rear on the wedge itself, this way you can always install them the same way... When the pin is installed, the markings are covered... :winking:

When using pillow ticking, I always place the ticking the same way for every shot... In my case, the dark blue stripe is parallel to the front sight, this ensures me that I will load the same way, every time...

I believe in fouling the barrel before loading a round ball, this is like warming up a car in the winter, you don't just jump in and expect it to perform without a hitch...

Changing the seating depth of the round ball will play havoc on the point of impact, as well as how hard you seat the ball against the powder...

Pay attention to the amount of lube you are using, a patch that is soaked will shoot different than a patch barely lubed, even with the same lube...

Consistency is the key to the "X" ring...

 

[bulletman]

After reading all this, and realizing, I am doing evrything right on the loading and shooting, i went back to step 1, I took the gun apart and started inspecting it like I was building it when I first got it, I looked down the channel the barrel sets in, it WARPED !!!!, over time I been having to squeeze the wood more and more to the barrel to get the pins in. about 3/8's inch, I know this isnt good on a regular rifle, so i sanded the high spots down so the barrel lays flat to the wood, now I only have to squeeze it together about a 16 of an inch to pin it. I hope it helps some atleast, this is getting frustrating as hek.

 

[No Powder]

If you are not a stickler for tradition Brownells (see links) makes a product called accuglass, use it to line the channel after you get everything right. A great product but be sure and follow the directions and make sure you use enough releasing agent and be sure you get a good coating on anything you don't want to stick.

 

[bulletman]

Its alot better now, out of 15 shots, 10 went in the 3 inch circle, the other 5 created vertical stringing, what causes that ?

 

[sabotloader]

I'd have to see the pattern and when they occured, but in the old days we called that "walking" as the barrel heats up and expands it pushes against the stock and tends to lift the shot up and left or right depending where the pressure of the wood stock and barrel meet - that is one of the reason they went to floating barrels. If you are using sabots - the warmer the barrel the more erratic the sabot can become.

Just guesses on my part.

 

[bulletman]

using patched ball, 2 went straight up, the others went just to the right and down, various times, not in sequence. Maybe I should go back and redo the barrel seating, I just sanded down what i could see were high spots , I didnt use any type of marking to see where the barrel was touching wood. I am not sure how these GPR are supposed to sit in the wood.

 

[sabotloader]

Normally in a sidelock you probably do not need to worry about "walking" that much because you don't normally heat the barrel up that much between shots. You are probably getting cought up in barrel movement. Each time you shoot you set up a harmonic in your barrel if the harmonic is the same everytime and everything else is equal the results should be the same - but if your barrel moves around in the channel touches here on time and ther the next time you will get different damoing each time therefore a different harmonic and therefore movement of your bullet will very. One way of reducing this was as I said float the entire barrel, well you can't do that very well - from there we next wen to bedding the barrel in glass to make contact equal at all points, plus the glass absorbs more heat than wood helpingeleiminate another problem. Weatherby at one time to reduce the cost went to point bedding their barrels. The barrel floated to a point where it then rested on a glass bed in the bottom of the stock for a short distance. I have bedded 2 of my sidelocks and it does make a difference but it does take some work. If you are not into bedding you somehow need to make sure that you have equal pressure on the barrel at all points when you put the wedge in. It is tough but can be done.

Of course another thing and I don't shoot RB so I'll just throw this out - Rbs are not real areodynamic so I would expect groups to vary a bit. Are they perfectly round? do all balls and patches go down exactly the same way? Is the shooter in exactly the same spot when the round goes off - man there is all kinds of variables... If Cayugad picks this string up he will have some other thoughts. I think he has shot a lot of round balls.

OOPS! the wife says I gotta go - check back later...

 

[gordy]

As SabotShooter has said ,I too shot cartridge weapons for about 40 years before takeing the plunge into muzzleloading! And I too wish I had spent most of that time with Black Powder. I've always enjoyed guns and shooting,but never had so much enjoyment since getting into Muzzleloading.there has always been differences of opinion wether to bed or free float bbls.Or to spot bed ,or partly float the bbls.It would seem that each faction claims success with their ideas.I'm not saying that changeing preasure points has no effect on groups in Black Powder guns,but I feel it's much less an issue than with hi-power cartidge guns.When a projectile leaves the muzzle at over 3000 fps it sets up much greater harmonics then a round ball at between 1400 and 2000 fps out of a heavy bbld.Hawken style rifle.There are however many many different things that will effect group size in frontstuffers. Many that were mentioned here.If You cast Your own ball,and don,t check the roundness and weight ,You will sooner or later have a flyer.If the sprue is not centered,if You change the lube or the amount used,if You wipe between shots with a different thickness patch,If the wiping patchis wetter or dryer than the last.if the ramrod preasure is different from shot to shot,if precut patches are not quite centered,Most all thease points are able to be controled,consistenty in all of thease will prove to be the most important factors in good grouping.Most of the time We keep thease factors as close as possible,but any combination of the above can make a considerble difference in point of impact.This is one big reason that makes muzzleloading so unique,We can alter any or all of thease points at will,and little expense. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif ::

 

[sabotloader]

Thanks Gordy, that is most of what I was trying to say, but you did it so much better....

 

[bulletman]

Thanks again, The tests shall continue.

 

[strongarm]

1. A hot barrel does not help.
2. You don't mention what projectile you are shooting
that can make a big difference
3. What was the temp and humidity the 2nd day. Powder absorbs moisture, that can be a big difference.
4. Make sure all your projectiles are the same weight.
5. Clean between shots. I run a slightly damp patch and then a dry one. Touch it to your cheek, you can tell how moist it is that way.
6. Don't change a thing, like different patches or the way you clean when you get home etc.

 

There is an exellent paper by Dutch Sholtz (spelling?) on this but as I stated in the other post the one thing that helped me the most (in shrinking my groups) was weighing my balls. A ball with a void (pocket) is like an unballenced wheel on your car spinning the ball off its axis. The only way to fine these balls is to weigh them.

 

[cayugad]

I really don't think the barrel seating is causing this. Are these home casted roundball your using or store bought?
If they are homecast, then you might want to check their weight. Normally if your lead temp is the same they will cast very similar. Also be careful if they are homecast, which way you set your spur. Some set the spur down I set mine up. I want to see it so I can cover it with the ball starter and seat it.

If your shots are stringing vertical try this; add just a grain or so of additional powder. We are not talking 5 grains, just budge the measure a little and be careful you are making the same charge level each time. Keep adding a grain or two and see if this does not bring them in. If they were horizontal then you would decrease the load a grain or two. Also a silly question but, are you a tapper? Do you tap your powder measure when pouring the charge? Some people tap some do not. I personally do not tap because it will change the charge ever so slight.

One other thing to check is your shooting form. Many times people get lax as they get into shooting their groups. They start holding loose (which accounts for the scopes on the nose problems) or they change where they are holding, such as off shoulder a little. Try and make sure your hold is the same each and every time.

I am sure your swabbing between shots. I swab with denatured alcohol then a couple dry patches. and when you set your ball down the barrel onto the charge try and do it the same every time. They say never pound the projectile (as I see many people do at the ranges) with the ramrod. Try and push it with a steady pressure.

You have a great rifle there. They are known shooters.

 

[bulletman]

I fixed it. I bent the wedge pins more and put more pressure on the barrel to wood fit, the more I bent the pins the tighter the group got, I ended up with a 5 shot one hole group just slightly larger than the ball, this is better than what I had before, but then again I took everybodies advice on here also on shooting techniques, I think the thing that started all this is the wood swelled in one spot of the channel the barrel sets in, the whole piece of wood didn't really warp , was just one 3 inch area, after sanding it down , and the wedge pin pressure, that did it. Thanks for all the help and advice. I am sure I will be running into more manure as I go along and will come here for help. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif