sick of that jackass who writes for NMLRA

[Robert Egler]

People today seem only willing to do the very minimum to " get by ".

That's true, and I think it reflects the trend of having to be "certified" to do just about anything anymore. Over-credentialization. Once you have to take some class and be ”˜certified’ in all kinds of stuff, then the idea that there are some things you ready DO need to learn about in class and be certified in gets lost. All the classes are viewed the same, just one more bureaucratic :bull: hoop that doesn’t really mean anything, so people put in the least efort they have to.

And I personally think hunter safety is something that you should take a class in before you can hunt. Proficiency testing, however, is not.

 

[flintlock75]

The whole mentality of profiencey testing came about due to some high profile, high visablity scewups that happened in the late 80's in Anchorage. We have a problem with so called urban moose, at last count F & G stated that there are 4500 moose in the Anchorage area. During the late summer you can drive around Anchorage and see giant trophy moose laying in a median eating ornamental tree's and watching the traffic go by without a care in the world, until it steps into traffic and gets hit. The Anchorage Hillside-ie big expensive houses, have moose chasing kids and pets all the time. Back in the 80's they decided to have a Bow hunt in the upper hillside area. well within a few days they had 2 moose walking around with arrows sticking out of them in the neiborhoods. All shown on the evening news, one died on the playground of a school. this caused a huge uproar and so the hunts were cancelled.
It took many years to recover from that. the bow hunters began requireing bow certification classes to keep this from happening again. Last year a very limited ML hunt was allowed only 4 tags, and ML certification was required, only 2 moose were taken.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Well, you can disagree, but you would be wrong. The book used is adopted by a National( actually international Committee of Hunter Safety Education Coordinators( the top Safety position in each state) and a new book comes out every 2 years. They keep changing what is in the text, and pictures, and frankly, I don't like most of the changes. Mostly, I don't like what they take out. What they substitute is not the equal of what they removed.

For instance, after a couple of Wisconsin grad students published a very light weight research paper about hunter attitudes, the book was edited to make room for several pages of nonsense about various stages of "Hunting", Like the " Trophy" Stage where hunters only feel successful if they shoot the biggest buck, etc. Now, what that has to do with safety education, I cannot figure out! But, its still in there, and they ask questions about the stages in the test!

One of the better things they removed was the " RULE OF 17", which tells you how to determine the diameter of bird shot, by subtracting the # of the shot from the number 17. They also got rid of the " Blue Sky " rule. ( Don't shoot unless your target is against a blue sky background when bird hunting,( other than turkeys).)The first piece of information lets people choose the right size shot for the game they are hunting, and determines the length of the drop zone to avoid hitting other hunters with shot. The second, of course, keeps people from shooting at low birds and hitting hunters on the other side of a field. Two of the several times I have been shot by other hunters was at a dove field where some idiot was firing at low birds.

Now that you know that particular instructor is weak on archery, and MLers, go to him, and offer to assist him by bringing archery equipment for the class, and helping to teach that segment. Same for the MLErs. :wink: :hmm: `

I have a friend who is a huge archery hunter, and he has more equipment and can talk in much greater detail about safety concerns for archers, than I can. I Can and do cover the basics, but he can answer just about any question about choice of equipment, and even has helped students who have handicaps know where to buy equipment for their needs.

I do the same thing with Muzzle loaders, and the modern guns. Its hard on my back to tote all those guns to the class, but I put on a good dog and pony show.

For one winter class, I wore my buckskins, but they were really too hot in the heated room, and having 30 or more people in the room only made it hotter. I don't do that anymore.

Buckskins don't have much to do with safety other than they are not Blaze Orange! Students don't seem to have any problem understanding that Blaze Orange is a Personal Safety issue, and a potential liability issue, if they were to shoot another hunter.

The reason the Hunter Safety Archery material is so different from the Bowhunter Association Book, is because there are two different objectives. The H-S course is solely interested in keeping people from injuring themselves, or others with those razor sharp broadheads. When people used wood arrows( and Traditional archers still do), there was also a problem with broken shafts stabbing the archer. That is largely eliminated or reduced as a danger using fiberglass, or carbon fiber, or even the aluminum alloy tubing arrow shafts. The BHA material is intended to explore both safety, and the technical aspects of using bows- usually compound bows-- as a primitive weapon.

In my first couple of classes, archers were complaining on how little technical material there was in the H-S material on bows and arrows. I explained the focus of the course, but they were still unhappy.

I began asking a couple of archer friends to bring their gear to the classes, and teach bow hunting. They made themselves available for questions over the Noon hour, so that the archers could get the technical advice we could not take class time to give to them. The added benefit for ALL my students was that my friends brought in several different types of portable tree stands, and found innovative ways to set them up in the classroom. Since more than half the Hunter Safety Accidents each year involve Non-firearm related injuries, mostly caused by falls from trees and treestands, their stands have allowed us to emphasize the do's and don't's of using stands.

 

[longcruise]

Well, you can disagree, but you would be wrong. The book used is adopted by a National( actually international Committee of Hunter Safety Education Coordinators

I expect that material is used in putting the course together but I'm pretty sure it is not strictly adhered to. The DOW has considerable specific to colorado education information. The course as taught is put together by the DOW. I'm sure they use the book you cited but my point is it's not the only thing taught and it is probably not taught in it's entirety since that would eliminate classroom time for the things that are required to be included by the DOW.

Now that you know that particular instructor is weak on archery, and MLers, go to him, and offer to assist him by bringing archery equipment for the class, and helping to teach that segment. Same for the MLErs.

If you look in the link below you will discover that there are approximately 500 hunter ed instructors in CO. :shocked2: Each of them has their class organized into components and time shcedules. In order to teach the classes (or any portion) the instructor must be certified (more about that process is at the link) so the real solution is to try to incorporate any changes at the DOW. Then there is also the problem of props, etc. How many of those 500 instructors have the firearms to take into the class and illustrate the variations? Most are able to bring in an example of a bolt, lever, shotgun, etc., but you can be sure that very few have a caplock or flinter. I like your suggestion though.
Link

usually compound bows-- as a primitive weapon.

There's an oxymoron for ya! :haha: No different than in-lines and their various accoutrements being presented as "primitive" weapons.

Since more than half the Hunter Safety Accidents each year involve Non-firearm related injuries, mostly caused by falls from trees and treestands, their stands have allowed us to emphasize the do's and don't's of using stands.

That's a good example of regional differences in hunter ed content. While tree stands are certainly used in CO they are not that common here and would not warrant more than a passing comment, IMO.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Absolutely true. You wouldn't think "primitive" would so hard for folks to grasp, would you? Seems like it is though.

I know what you mean...After all a rock and sling should be pretty self explanitory....

Thank you for your post. Its content shows the mind set of someone who simply does not get it and attempts, albeit in a sophomoric fashion, to put down those that do. This is the common response that we have come to expect over the years from the Toby Bridges of the world. One would think, on a traditional muzzleloading forum, that more people would grasp the simple fact that primitve firearms seasons were started so that hunters could use primitive firearms to harvest deer. It seems such a simple concept and yet so many are incapable of grasping it. One thing to console yourself with--you stand with the majority and will never be lonely! But you still don't get it...

 

[paulvallandigham]

When people become H-S instructors they are told to modify the emphasis of the book material to note safety issues common to the kind of hunting done locally. That is why the courses differ from instructor to instructor, and from location and state to another. I am sure instructors in Eastern Colorado teach different safety concerns, than those who teach in the Western Half of Colorado. We are told to pay attention to the reported injury and death cases that are provided to us on the prior year's hunting season.

When I pre-register people for my classes, I ask the parents what their hunting interest is. If they are interested in something I don't have, I ask them to bring their gear to the class, so They can do a brief Show and Tell, and answer questions from me, and from the students. I ask parents to attend the classes with their children, 16 and under, because they need to know what I am teaching their kids. In reality, I want to teach them how to coach their children to teach them good safety habits, and to help show them where to stand, and how to control a new shooter with a gun, or bow and arrow, so they don't pose a threat to others on the firing line, or in the field. Because I have so many parents present, I don't have to worry very much about discipline problems. Because the parents are there, and ask questions, the kids learn rather quickly that when it comes to guns and hunting, they are expected to act, and think like adults, and its okay to ask questions. This gets the kids to actively participate in the class, and that in turn gives me feedback so I know that the kids are learning, and I am not talking over their heads( level of understanding of English words. As a lawyer, I am very concerned that I don't talk down to people, but that I also don't talk above them. I am the wordsmith, and its MY responsibility to find language that they understand to communicate ideas about safety. If you belong to a ML gun club, as I do, ask the other members to find out where a H-S class is being taught near them, and contact the organizer or instructor to volunteer to provide guns, and gear, and to help explain and teach safety in that field. I would be shocked if someone rejected such an offer, particularly if they were not a BP shooter themselves.

I hand the book to such volunteers when they show up, and have them read the ML chapters, and the questions at the end of each chapter, so that they know the minimum materials the kids need to cover to pass their test. Then, I ask them to add more safety related items that didn't make the book, or have been edited out of the current version.

They get to listen to HOW I teach, and keep the kids attention, before I put them in front of the class. Some tell me they learn some things from me about teaching; others don't. No matter how they do, I am interested in another point of view, and someone elses way of presenting the material. I learn something from every instructor I watch and listen to.

 

[Old Charlie]

Those hunter safety courses are a waste of time and money. I went to one for ten hours with my grandson. If anyone actually believes that one person came out of there a safer hunter, I have some ocean front property in AZ I want to talk to you about.
It is nothing more than a way for the state to make a few more bucks off hunters.
Old Charlie

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Those hunter safety courses are a waste of time and money. I went to one for ten hours with my grandson. If anyone actually believes that one person came out of there a safer hunter, I have some ocean front property in AZ I want to talk to you about.
It is nothing more than a way for the state to make a few more bucks off hunters.
Old Charlie

+1 it is a bunch of BS. I learned more from my dad and brother as i was growing up.

 

[Old Salt]

Just threw my latest issue of muzzleblast in the woodstove. :bull:
Al who ever he is who writes about hunting usally slanted towards inlines just slamed idaho for their ruling on the muzzleloading season stating "it's very contraversal"
Poor bastard can't go to Idaho with his scoped Knight and use sabots,shotgun primers, and pyrodex pellets WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
saying I'm now limited to 100 yrd shots in that state
:bull:
I'm done with muzzleblast and the NMLRA.
The only good thing about that mag is John Curry and the Bevel Bros.
Even their legislative notes are usally a month or two off the back.
:surrender:

Your knowledge of who the author is compares to your interpretation of what he wrote.

The basics of the article are that you need to know the ML hunting regulations of any state before you plan a trip.

I see 72 pages of historic arms, american history, traditional gun building, making mocasins, primitive camping and events etc. etc. etc.

Maybe you got a different edition? :rotf:

Old Salt

 

[paulvallandigham]

The H-S Course is NOT a replacement for the Training you get at home. In fact, I explain to every class that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO TEACH YOU, OR ANYONE TO BE SAFE in a 10-hour course! Safety is a function of habit, and habits are learned through hours of repetition and " NAGGING". :rotf: I don't have my students long enough to be able to nag at them!! :blah: :rotf: :surrender:

What the course can do-- and the reason I ask the parents to attend with their children-- is even out the education that the Parents ALREADY HAVE about firearm safety, and Supplement their knowledge with additional Current information on Hunting regulations and laws.
Teaching them about MLers, for instance, is something they may not have gotten from " Dad" because he wasn't into MLers.

As one father put it to me, bluntly, " You didn't teach me a darn thing I didn't already know that I was taught by my father. What you did teach me is the reasons " Why ", so I can explain those reasons to my son. My father never did that for me. Thank You. ".

If you thought the instructors were going to do more than that, your expectations were highly exaggerated. :v :hatsoff:

I, too, have mixed feelings about the State requiring everyone to take the course. I think for adults there should be an abbreviated program, covering current game laws, and precedures that you need to know to hunt legally in the State. The rest, you should be able to take a test when you enter and proficiency out of the rest of the course. It chafes at me that the State is requiring all hunters to take this course, when for most adults and many kids who grow up in a hunting family environment, the time could be put to better use.

Having said that, I will tell you that the data collected since the course began to be required back in the 1950s indicates that students are less likely to have hunting accidents, than are non-students. Worse, while hunters under 20 years of age have seen their accident rates drop, the rates for adults, previously NOT REQUIRED to take the course appears to have risen, and shows little sign of reducing. The latest efforts to expand the requirement to more adults is based on data collected in Colorado, where the number of hunting accidents before the course was offered were 60+ a year, but are now down to a third of that, even with many more hunters in the field in Colorado.

Several things are credited for that reduction in hunting accidents in Colorado: (1). The requirement that all out-of-state hunters take the course to buy a Colorado license. Your state certificate is accepted in Colorado, and all other states. (2). The requirement in Colorado that anyone born after Jan. 1, 1949 must take course, for Colorado Residents. and (3). The popular ( almost universal ) use of Telescopic sights on rifles now used for hunting Mule Deer, Elk, Moose, Whitetail Deer, and Antelope, as well as Bear, in the State.

Eastern Colorado still produces some Shotgun related injuries, usually to members of the same hunting party, because the shooter swings on the other hunter trying to shoot game. Those incidents are much less than in a State like Illinois.

Handguns and Mlers rank among the lowest involvements in Hunting Accidents across the country, mainly because the range to the targets are usually short, and the shots deliberately taken at standing game.

I understand your frustration, but if you take these courses with the attitude that you are going to be a " sponge" and suck up any bit of information that you might glean from the instructors, you will benefit from the class.

If nothing else, learn how to be a better teacher and coach for members of your family. We all can stand improvement.

I make a point of asking the guys sitting there with their arms crossed, if they can add anything to what I have said as we go through the class, and get them involved with sharing some of their stories. The arms come down. :wink:

 

[kevthebassman]

Why can't we just hunt? Does it really matter if someone over the hill is hunting with a different weapon than you are?

One thing's for sure -- if you eliminate the "primitive/muzzleloading" season, inlines will shrivel and die on the vine.

I agree, on both points.

 

[rebel727]

Y'all think y'all got it bad. Ms. allows external hammer breech loading scoped cartridge rifles with smokeless powder. Last year it was limited to .38 and over which includes 45-70 and 450 Marlin. I've heard this year they're dropping it to .35 which will allow the 35 Whelen and allowing hunting baited fields. What's the point of even having a primitive weapon season? It doesn't affect me because I hunt my own place but it still burns me up.

 

[buck1]

I took a hunter safety course one time and there was so much mularky thrown at us untill some of us started to ask questions! Well come to find out the instructer wasn't nor had he ever been a hunter!! Imagine that!!! One of the things he taght us was if 2 or more hunters came to a creek and had to cross it on a log that 1 hunter was to hold all the guns untill everyone else had crossed and then he was to hand them all the guns and cross himself! Well first of all if the creek is very wide everyone is screwed, second if its not that wide and they can reach across with the guns someone is going to have all the guns pointed directly at them while passing them across! And third what if the hunter is by himself? He said at no time should a hunter carry a gun across a log!!! Well I guess the hunts over gotta go home now can't cross the creek!!!! :shake: :bull:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Sounds like a guy who needs to be taken out on a field exercise so he can learn something about what he is talking about! Obviously, the State can be too choosey about who it accepts as an instructor. These are volunteers, and if you look a gift horse in the mouth too much, you soon find yourself on foot, again.

The State has funds to put on training programs for the instructors, but once again, it is up to the instructors to volunteer. I attended one such weekend session at Eastern Illinois University years ago, hoping to learn more about teaching the class. I learned a lot about setting up a field exercise for various skills for the kids to use, but nothing about teaching the classroom material I didn't already know. I was disappointed. Then, someone from the Springfield office showed up on the Sunday morning, and when she was introduced to me, she made the mistake of blurting out,

" You're the lawyer from Champaign that everyone raves about! You are one of the very best teachers we have in the state!"

Then, she said, " OOPS!, I don't think I was suppose to tell you that!"

I promised her I would not let it go to my head, and we both laughed. I did have a nice talk with her about teaching.

I have offered to put on a training course for instructors on MLers, and on Track identification and tracking. I have had no response back from the Department on either offer. I sent them in several years in a row, and even called Springfield, Il. to see if they had been lost in the mails, or had been received. They had, but no one could refer me to whoever it was that would make a decision on what courses to offer. With the current governor stealing funds from the DNR, no such courses have been offered since he became governor. He Could care less about the H-S program, because he's a city guy, doesn't like or know anything about guns or hunting, and doesn't care. And he won't listen to anyone either.

 

[jethro224]

Those hunter safety courses are a waste of time and money. I went to one for ten hours with my grandson. If anyone actually believes that one person came out of there a safer hunter, I have some ocean front property in AZ I want to talk to you about.
It is nothing more than a way for the state to make a few more bucks off hunters.
Old Charlie

+1 it is a bunch of BS. I learned more from my dad and brother as i was growing up.

When I was 5 my parents got divorced. Didn't see much of Dad after that until I was grown up.

When I was 6 my Grandpa gave me a Crosman 760. He spent 5 minutes showing me how to work it and told me he would take it back the first time I shot something I wasn't supposed to. When I was 10 he gave me a 20ga bolt Mossberg. Took the clip away so it was a single shot and spent another 5 minutes showing me how that one worked. Same rule.

Dad not around, no brothers, no uncles, grandpa didn't hunt. I had NOBODY to teach me or take me hunting. So I read every hunting magazine and book I could get my hands on and dreamed of the day I could go hunting by myself. When I was 12 I found out that you could get a hunting license before the age of 16 if you took a H S class.

As I remember, it took a lot of asking before my Mom agreed to take me to the H S class. She just dropped me off. I was that sponge and I learned a lot. Aced the test and got my first hunting license.

That was back in 1978 before everybody had to take the class. I still remember. It cost nothing but time, I learned, and I enjoyed it. :thumbsup:

 

[Idaho Ron]

Paul, I have been a HS and BHS instructor for over 15 years. I have ran hundreds of people through my classes. What I meant in my post was a separate ML class like the BHS class. Yes there is a ML section and most classes only skim over this at best. In my classes ML is most of a night where BHS is only a brief few minutes, and I tell them how to sign up for a BHS class.
Here in Idaho, like most states, the state runs the HS classes. This state does not have the money for a separate ML certification class. Nor does it have enough instructors to even come close to doing a ML class only.
When the bow hunters fought to get a BHS class here in Idaho they promised they would help teach. Of the guys I know that helped push the law through NONE of them now teach. My guess is buckskinners here would be the same way. They would think a class only for ML would be super but in time they would say "don't ask me to help I don't have time" over more time the class would mean nothing at all yet someone would have to teach the class.
Getting close enough to kill deer and elk with a PRB is a skill that most new hunters underestimate. Shooting long range is also a skill that is underestimated by many. It takes practice and discipline to master the art of long range shooting.
It is unfortunate that most guys that apply for Idaho ML tags buy the close range PRB gun the week before the hunt and then shoot it at deer way beyond their ability to cleanly kill the animal. I don’t think Idaho is the only state with hunters like this. What I am getting at is this gives a black eye to us all.
Ron

 

One would think, on a traditional muzzleloading forum, that more people would grasp the simple fact that primitve firearms seasons were started so that hunters could use primitive firearms to harvest deer.

I think some folks may not understand why there is need for a "special" season, when you can "use primitive firearms to harvest deer" during the regular season. A special season doesn't allow you to do anything you can't already do, except have fewer hunters in the field.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you figure out how to change the hearts of men and women to be better, to make committments to volunteer time and services to help better their community, you can win the Nobel Peace Prize. I don't know the answer. I try to set an example. I offer to teach the skills I have mastered to anyone interested. I have written articles about these subjects hoping to reach a wider audience. I know a lot of very good hunters, who can still show me things I don't do, but who just can't write. I had to learn to write to be a lawyer. I had to learn to speak to people of all kinds to be an effective trial lawyer. When I work as an attorney, I sell those skills for a living. When I teach Hunter Safety, That is my choice, my time, my talent, and my use of the writing and speaking talents I have practiced. Everyone has something they do well, and everyone should therefor expect to be a teacher. Most only pass on skills to their own family. Not even their kid's friends are taught what they teach their kids willingly. I don't have children. The 1800+ Students I have certified are my " kids", regardless of their age. I want them to enjoy hunting as much as I have during my life, and if they can get half of what I have out of the experience, they will have lead a rich life.

Everytime I teach another class, I try to add something new-- mostly out of boredom with doing the same old stuff, and hearing my own voice! One father brought three different kids through my courses, taking the class 3 times. The third time he came to a class, I recognized him, but could not remember his name. When I found out he was taking it a third time, I laughed, and apologized because he has to be bored to death listening to my stories I use to illustrate safety issues. At the end of the class, he told me that I had NOT repeated any story in any of the three classes he had taken. Now, that is boredom as a motivational factor going full blast! :blah: :rotf: :thumbsup: He was amazed, but I was in shock. I could not for the life of me remember all the stories I use to make each point. I learned a long time ago that people learn faster, and listen more closely if you keep the material delivery humorous. If I don't have the class laughing every ten minutes I am not doing my job. Self deprecating humor works the fastest to get people to smile.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The point is that there were primitive firearm seasons and now--even though they still are often referred to as such--modern firearms that bear no resemblance to the historical firearms and have none of the handicaps of the true muzzleloaders are allowed. Plastic stocked, stainless steel scoped rifles, often in camo paint, and using saboted slugs (often modern spitzer style bullets) and in at least one case using smokeless powder. Some twit even developed one of these guns with electronic ignition. The idea of getting back to the roots of hunting without modern equipment, reacquainting ourselves with our past and our heritage was completely lost in the rush to make a buck. And hunters who saw a chance to bag another deer or two and don't give a damn about history or heritage leapt on the bandwagon. They don't need to learn any new skills because the muzzleloader they use isn't all that inferior to their breechloaders--except in rate of fire. And now some of these people are trying to get traditional muzzleloaders outlawed as hunting guns by claiming that they lack the power necessary to cleanly take a deer. The attitudes and methods of these modern muzzleloaders are at odds with traditional muzzleloaders in the same way that people who care about historical accuracy at re-enactments will always be at odds with the folks who think that an Italian "Hawken" a coonskin cap, a fringed hunting shirt and a pair of cowboy boots is close enough for F&I re-enacting.
We need true primitive firearm seasons where only truly primitive firearms can be used so that the hunting traditions of our forefathers can be preserved and carried on. The guy in a tree stand with his zipgun doesn't give a damn about any of this, though he often will loudly proclaim his great love for traditional muzzleloading. He is, quite frankly, full of what makes the grass grow green--and I don't mean rain. If he truly cared, he would be in the woods come primitive season with a longrifle or fowler or something with a sidelock and and a patched ball sitting on a charge of black powder. But his way is so much easier and besides, if they'd a had it they'd a used it!

 

...... We need true primitive firearm seasons where only truly primitive firearms can be used so that the hunting traditions of our forefathers can be preserved and carried on. The guy in a tree stand with his zipgun doesn't give a damn about any of this, though he often will loudly proclaim his great love for traditional muzzleloading.......

That's all true, but some would still say that what the other guy uses or does has no effect on you. You can still hunt as primitive as you wish, regardless of what others do. How does the other persons hunting style effect you?