Smacking the lock

[roundball]

"The problem with LOW Vents-where its right down at the bottom of the pan is that HEAT rises! Its heat, not flame that ignites the main charge"

While it is true that heat rises, I doubt that if it could be measures there would be little if any difference in the heat from one side of the pan over an arc to the other side upon ignition,it is just to small of an area and the difference between a low and high vent are to small to really be noticable, likely less than the difference between 2f and 3f, maybe someone can set up an experiment in a closet to test this?



"As I've mentioned before, I think that the strong forces involved with a pile of black powder exploding are far too strong to allow convection, or the idea of rising heat affect a flintlocks ignition."

Sounds very reasonable, if you sit on a grenade and it pops off it aint the heat that will scorch your ass.

Black powder doesn't "explode"

 

[roundball]

Draw what ever conclusion you like.

Pletch-man, once again you've done magnificant work...continued testimony to the fact that actual hands on experience beats theory every time.

:thumbsup:

 

[tg]

Excuse me I should have used the term ignition or rapid burning sequence,the pint being that the heat would likely be pretty much the same around the core of the event in an area the size of a pan on a flintlock, and rising heat would not be a factor in ignition.the expanding burn/ignition would be what moves the heat, and out of curiosity what would one call the effect one gets from building a pipe bomb or fire cracker with BP.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

. . . snipped . . . the expanding burn/ignition would be what moves the heat, and out of curiosity what would one call the effect one gets from building a pipe bomb or fire cracker with BP.

TG,
I am kind of at a loss when it comes to the terminology also. Earlier I borrowed the term "Flame Front" from the engineers that study flame moving from the spark plug in an engine. It's as good as I could come up with. At least I think I'm using it the same way they do, when I mean the leading edge of the ignition moving away from the ignition point. (BTW the flame front in an engine cylinder is supersonic according to one source.)

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Zonie]

Roundball: Black powder does "explode". That is why it is termed an explosive.
Smokeless powder and the synthetic black powders do not "explode" under normal atmospheric pressures.
The difference is a matter of the speed of combustion.

Pletch: Great photos and they seem to reinforce the photos you took before.
Also, congratulations to you! When the famous Bevel Brothers spend a whole article using your work you can truly say you've reached the "Big Time"! Well, maybe not the Big Time but, your work is obviously recognized as a great contribution to our knowledge.

TG: "...and out of curiosity what would one call the effect one gets from building a pipe bomb or fire cracker with BP."
Destructive?

 

[roundball]

Roundball: Black powder does "explode". That is why it is termed an explosive.

zonie: You might want to look that one up...that's not why its in the explosives category.

Dynamite explodes from within...black powder is a surface burning powder and burns.

 

Roundball: Black powder does "explode". That is why it is termed an explosive.

Its not classed as a "propellant"?

 

[sniper68]

Tis an explosive, low grade, same class as fireworks and and flares. Fact.. :v Source? Friend of my Mom and Sister owns a fire work factory. So says they.

 

[Dphar]

While it is an explosive it is far different than explosives such as guncotton or nitrogylcerine.
It is a "deflagrating explosive". It burns. Guncotton, nitro, C-4 etc. *Detonate* something that BP cannot do.
The difference is that BP must burn to create gas to create pressure. If not contained it simply produces a fireball as it burns off.
Detonating explosives convert from a solid to energy far more rapidly. The "burn" at 20000 or so feet per second (over 6900 meters per second for TNT for example). BP might make 1300 meters per second, depends on who you read, I suspect 900-1000 is more reasonable.
Pressure for BP peaks at 100000 psi in *closed bomb* tests. In a container the powder cannot burst. Modern explosives can make as much as 100000 *atmospheres* and will "cut" steel. Except in very small amounts modern HEs cannot be contained. This is why guncotton could not be used as a propellant.
Lots of info out there is anyone cares to look it up.
http://www.pyroinnovations.com/explosives.html

BP will do this with a simple application of fire. HEs need a cap/an initiator. If you light them with a match they just burn in most or all situations and not very fast at that.
So its possible to use C-4 to heat a can of beans or warm your hands at a fire barrel. BP won't work.

Dan

 

[musketman]

Roundball: Black powder does "explode". That is why it is termed an explosive.

zonie: You might want to look that one up...that's not why its in the explosives category.

Dynamite explodes from within...black powder is a surface burning powder and burns.

If black powder is not an explosive, then we should be able to buy it anywhere, right? :grin:

The MSDS for black powder states under HEALTH HAZARDS: "Black powder is a Division 1.1 Explosive".

Black Powder MSDS

 

[roundball]

Have to be careful about terminology.

Black powder does not "explode"...it burns (very fast) and yes, it's classified in the explosives category as a result. However, you can order a case of BP and have it thrown on and off trucks all over the country, left out sitting in the hot sun on somebody's front porch, etc...but not so with a case of dynamite.

BP's extremely low ignition point, and the massive gas production it makes upon ignition is why its classified in the explosives category. And that massive gas expansion...if confined...will RESULT IN something exploding...but that does not mean "BP explodes".

Another example:
If BP is poured in a line on the ground out in the open, it'll just fizzle slowly along taking it's merry time burning off...same thing with a whole can of it poured out in a single pile...it'll just burn with a larger concentrated whoosh and smoke cloud...personally done it both ways...but in neither case did it "explode".

By contrast, a stick of dynamite...whether stuck in a drilled hole in a rock somewhere...or left laying on the open ground like the BP example above.....explodes....regardless if confined or not....its the nature of the chemical composition and construction.

Might be an interesting thread to start on its own...

 

[musketman]

The MSDS sheet I listed was from GOEX, and if they list their black powder as an explosive, then who am I to question their wisdom. :grin: :hatsoff:

Black Powder MSDS

 

[roundball]

Already acknowledged that it's classified in the explosives category...simply making the point that blackpowder does not "explode".

 

[Dphar]

Roundball: Black powder does "explode". That is why it is termed an explosive.

zonie: You might want to look that one up...that's not why its in the explosives category.

Dynamite explodes from within...black powder is a surface burning powder and burns.

If black powder is not an explosive, then we should be able to buy it anywhere, right? :grin:

The MSDS for black powder states under HEALTH HAZARDS: "Black powder is a Division 1.1 Explosive".

Black Powder MSDS

The feds base their over regulation of BP on its ease of ignition, to them BP is the same as C-4 etc. Silliness.
Just be glad they don't classify gasoline the same way. Its a powerful explosive and ignites very easy too.

You fuse the center "bottle" in a case of BP and set it off and generally it will not ignite more than 5-6 of the other containers in the box. Really powerful stuff.
The Feds can control it so they do. Job security I suppose.
All this has done is drive up the price and make our sport more difficult.
Far more violent stuff can be purchased at the gas station or grocery store.
Yes, its an explosive. So is grain dust and it kills more people and does far more property damage. But it falls under OSHA.

Dan

 

[FishDFly]

An explosion is a rapid increase in volume and release of energy in an extreme manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases. An explosion creates a shock wave.

"Water" when heated creates an explosion, see the increase in pressure (about 1300 times) when water is heated to steam. Lots of dead people will tell you water when is heated it can create an explosion, water contains no hydrocarbons to burn, where does the explosion cone from?????, the rapid expansion and no place to do.

Seems those who have not worked in a chemical plant or refinery and have not read the hazards of working there, are not well versused in the dangers of explosions.

You can lead a horse to water, etc.


RDE

 

[Dphar]

An explosion is a rapid increase in volume and release of energy in an extreme manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases. An explosion creates a shock wave.

"Water" when heated creates an explosion, see the increase in pressure (about 1300 times) when water is heated to steam. Lots of dead people will tell you water when is heated it can create an explosion, water contains no hydrocarbons to burn, where does the explosion cone from?????, the rapid expansion and no place to do.

Seems those who have not worked in a chemical plant or refinery and have not read the hazards of working there, are not well versused in the dangers of explosions.

You can lead a horse to water, etc.


RDE

I under stand explosions pretty well.
I have been a lot closer than I like on more than one occasion.

My point is that BP is pretty benign as explosives go and does not deserve the regulation heaped on it. But since the feds consider it a "Class A" its hard to get "permission" to sell the stuff so most stores don't even try. Thus the supply is reduced so more people shoot "synthetics" and even fewer places then carry BP. Its not good for the sport. Especially if one does not care to use "synthetics" or shoot flintlock.
I never said BP was not an explosive.
But it is different than the HEs. Put a cap in a bar of C4 and put it in a box with other bars of C-4 or almost anything else that will burn or explode and its going to go with the C-4.
A pound container of BP...? Well maybe, maybe not.

Dan