Smooth rifle???

[Gordoncourtney]

Yes the Lancaster oval bore was only .005 out of round but it was enough to spin the bullet deadly accurate and no fouling of rifling I did explain some experiments on other strings and an oval bore is easy to make with a lap and twisted rod. Old school mountain men style , It takes time but time is not the essence it seemed Lancaster actually cut the bore oval. But I find almost no historical reference to this or bullets used. Of course it shoots shot perfectly well. and looks like a shotgun
My pal has a double Lancaster rifle but has not found right bullet yet as some still go through the target sideways

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Some of the big names in European rifle making, Griswold, Holland and Holland, to name a couple, felt that a smooth rifle for dangerous game, Lions, tigers, etc, were better suited for the job as ranges were usually very close. Large calibers were necessary for knock down

I don’t think you need riffling with a 4 or 8 bore and a dangerous animal bearing down 10 ft from your nose , but I have seen them
riffled at holts London auction Of course the paradox with the last 6” of the muzzle rifled was liked by the Maharajas of India for tiger and other game. I have seen some expensive nice ones at Holts auction. Unlike our friends across the pond we just cannot bid or buy them without the police putting the gun on our certificate At 78 the police confiscated my real guns and certificates. In case I shot intruders robbers etc. it seems I can still have wall hangers and obsolete guns and rifles. And I am great with a bow and arrow but since 1963 you cannot hunt with one, Of course you cannot hunt foxes with hound either , the plebs once again upsetting our aristocracy Ha ha ha I wish you well from London

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Extracts. I hope you read his book. To wet your appetite here are some pages from the paradox rifle. Just the last 6” rifled tet smooth bore For shot and slugs

 

[bud in pa]

I bought the book by Gladzy, or however you spell his name, and he shows a drawing of a French fusil with a rear sight.

 

[rich pierce]

Here’s an original Lancaster smooth rifle.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Here’s an original Lancaster smooth rifle. View attachment 103738View attachment 103739View attachment 103740View attachment 103741View attachment 103742View attachment 103743

Definitely a flint conversion I would say. Lancaster only made top quality guns. Which this doesn’t quite fit , or does it ???! So was this perhaps part of a military flintlock batch he
converted. Perhaps very collectible. He did a lot of trials with the army the brass trigger guard looks interesting and looks like that of a Baker rifle maybe 1780
Lot of interesting research needed in this one. This is a great string so interesting

 

[Gordoncourtney]

No just checked the brass trigger guard ain’t the same as the Baker

 

[rich pierce]

Definitely a flint conversion I would say. Lancaster only made top quality guns. Which this doesn’t quite fit , or does it ???! So was this perhaps part of a military flintlock batch he
converted. Perhaps very collectible. He did a lot of trials with the army the brass trigger guard looks interesting and looks like that of a Baker rifle maybe 1780
Lot of interesting research needed in this one. This is a great string so interesting

Hmm, Lancaster is a small city and had many gunsmiths working to many different sorts of customers. Lancaster is not a person or a single gunsmith. This gun is what is often referred to as a composite gun made from some new and some recycled parts. The barrel, lock, and guard look mid 1700s European. The buttplate is 1780s to 1800 Lancaster style. So the gun was probably stocked up post Rev War.

 

[Brokennock]

the term "smooth rifle" as another term for fowler

Have not ever seen this. Can you provide an example?
Would like to add it to my collection of references.

 

[AV8R]

First, I would like like to sincerely thank the contributors to this thread in helping me figure out the type of long gun one of my Rev War ancestors would have used (see my intro post).
Second, regarding the oval bored weapon - are you sure you need anything other than round all for it? I’m thinking of the deformation of the skirt in a Minie ball of the Civil War era. With a patch of appropriate thickness, you might be able to impart a bit of spin to a roundball. As I write this, I’m thinking of a certain civil war artillery round with lugs in the side of the shell.

 

[rich pierce]

The oval bore must be extremely rare, in that in 45 years of study I’ve never heard of it in American flintlock or percussion guns.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Is a "smooth rifle" just a smooth bore with both front and rear sights?

Yes. Terminology then and now is an illogical mess. A good example are modern cartridge designations. Also consider the CW period 'rifled musket'. Very contradictory term. A smoothie is a musket. If it is rifled it is.........uh......a rifle. Well.......sorta.......most of the time.

 

[rich pierce]

Smoothbores often have combinations of the following design features:
Round or octagon to round barrels
Fowler or musket style guard with no grip rail
Fowler or musket style buttplate with a tang extension that is it squared off
No rear sight

Rifles usually have the following features:
An octagonal barrel, rifled
A guard with a handrail that stands off from the grip area
A buttplate with a squared off extension
A rear sight.

Smooth rifles are not simply smoothbores with a rear sight. They have some architectural details common to rifles but have a smooth bore.

 

[JCKelly]

This smoothbore firearm appears to have been made by Deringer for the Indian trade.

Henry Deringer percussion converted fullstock rifle. Barrel 40” long, 53 cal. smooth bore straight
oct bbl 1" across flats. Wt 8 lb 12 oz, 13-1/8" pull, patchbox. From the late Cecil C. Keyser, May 1969.

Markings on bbl likely made under Gov't contract for the Indian Trade. See p. 155, Firearms in Colonial America.

Call it whatever pleases you. It is a smoothbore made by Henry Deringer, apparently for the Gov't Indian Trade.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I don’t expect oval bores to come up on American guns. Lancaster was a great uk gunmaker, Nothing to do with the town of Lancaster he was in the time of percussion. Especial developing the oval bore So it is doubtful that the above mentioned gun is a Lancaster as it is in the Bess flintlock period, before his time , especially the Bess style lock plate converted to percussion maybe 1840 Quite a bit about him on google. He made fine guns and double oval bore rifles which some of us Brits own He was also I recall an expert on cannon. I have asked other experts to comment

 

[Gordoncourtney]

There seems some confusion between the uk town of Lancaster and Charles Lancaster the probably inventor of the oval bore rifle It’s quite clear that many gun parts were made in workshops around the uk but mainly in the gun quarter of Birmingham Of course many guns were made in Birmingham but finished proofed and sold as London manufacture that’s history. I would guess Charles Lancaster actually made some guns such as the four barrelled gun below. He was not a mass producer so would not need to sub contract parts manufacture We do come across his double rifles in the uk exquisite design and fetch in excess of day £7000. Plenty on him on google. But we struggle to find the finer details about him He clearly was not producing in the flintlock times but well into the percussion and brass cartridge period. I doubt the gun mentioned in this string , or others , With Bess size flint plates are true Lancaster rifle as they are 50- 100 years or so before Charles Lancaster’s time from more research is needed Read more below

 

[Brokennock]

There seems some confusion between the uk town of Lancaster and Charles Lancaster the probably inventor of the oval bore rifle It’s quite clear that many gun parts were made in workshops around the uk but mainly in the gun quarter of Birmingham Of course many guns were made in Birmingham but finished proofed and sold as London manufacture that’s history. I would guess Charles Lancaster actually made some guns such as the four barrelled gun below. He was not a mass producer so would not need to sub contract parts manufacture We do come across his double rifles in the uk exquisite design and fetch in excess of day £7000. Plenty on him on google. But we struggle to find the finer details about him He clearly was not producing in the flintlock times but well into the percussion and brass cartridge period. I doubt the gun mentioned in this string , or others , With Bess size flint plates are true Lancaster rifle as they are 50- 100 years or so before Charles Lancaster’s time from more research is needed Read more below

For students of Colonial American longrifles and fowling pieces, "Lancaster" is considered one of many so called "schools" that design styles have been divided up into by modern collectors and historians. Finding design similarities between gun builders in the area of the town, then county, of Lancaster, Pennsylvania in a certain time period. Same for Bucks County, or Lehigh County, or several others later on.
When we refer to a Lancaster rifle it in no way implies any relationship to the gentleman building guns in Great Britain.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

AwAy from the arguments of Lancaster here is a a selection of guns I can buy at Holts Auctioneers in uk without a police certificate. Pages of guns if you go to their website. Very tempting You can bid from across the pond as a friend in Florida does but you pay a £700 premium for USA paperwork

 

[Gordoncourtney]

For students of Colonial American longrifles and fowling pieces, "Lancaster" is considered one of many so called "schools" that design styles have been divided up into by modern collectors and historians. Finding design similarities between gun builders in the area of the town, then county, of Lancaster, Pennsylvania in a certain time period. Same for Bucks County, or Lehigh County, or several others later on.
When we refer to a Lancaster rifle it in no way implies any relationship to the gentleman building guns in Great Britain.
[/QUOTE

Oh that’s interesting , I did not understand That’s the worst of the World Wide Web Many thanks I guess I should say from the uk a

 

[Brokennock]

You're welcome Mr. Courtney.
These things happen when we speak the same language, differently,,,,, lol.