• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Smooth rifles, were they made as new guns?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Why would a gun maker only make one type of gun?
Give them credit for being more resourceful than that!
All gunsmiths would have seen virtually every style available before, during, and after learning the trade.
Most would not have been close-minded against other styles.
And what about repair work? If a customer brought in a rifle or fowler made in Tennessee to a Lancaster County gunmaker for replacement stock or broken furniture would the gunsmith have said “ Sorry, I can’t help you. I can only do Lancaster County guns”.
Really???
I am not saying gun makers did not have their preferred styles. But after a little experience a good stock maker would have been able to make almost anything.
A good friend of mine has been a part-time gunsmith and gunstock maker for many years.
He prefers the styles of Remington and Winchester factory stocks, and various custom makers, but he can make copies of European classic Mauser sporters just as easily. His work is excellent.
A lot of the old timers were just as good, and would not have turned down the work. Especially if they had a land payment due, or were needing money for a new horse or tools.
How Would a Gunsmith 250 years ago get all this knowledge of what was being built in other areas? Most people back then had never even been 50 miles from their home, depending on where you lived a trip to the county seat could take several days. A gunsmith might occasionally see a rifle from an adjourning county if someone passing through needed it repaired. Seeing a gun from a different colony would have been extremely rare. The idea that someone could walk into a gun shop in Lancaster and order a Tennesse rifle is ridiculous. How was the gunsmith going to even find out what a Tennessee rifle looked like? Reality is the people who lived around any Gunsmith shop probably had no idea that any other style of guns even existed.
 
Interesting to consider that it was rare for a gunsmith not to see many other guns or styles of guns other than his own. I’m not buying that. As for a maker sticking to his style of arms I believe that. Even today gun makers have a style, you can look at a modern rifle from across the room and usually can tell the maker.
 
I wonder if the people back in the day agonized over all these details and differences or just used what ever they could find or afford? Seems to me that they had a whole lot of other issues & problems to deal with on a daily basis just to survive day to day? IMHO
 
I have learned much from this thread. I appreciate the different views and opinions, from folks who know a lot more than I do. It's made me think about things that I hadn't previously thought about and answered some of the questions I had regarding smooth rifles. If we really knew exactly what was going on back then it wouldn't be so interesting to think about.
 
I can speak a little bit about the Hawken brothers and the firearms that came from their shop. Mostly it is from my association with builders and scholars who have had and compared various Hawken products. Of different styles, the firearms from the Hawken shop could have been the famous Plains rifle, a bit more slender, smaller caliber "California" rifle, a local "squirrel" rifle or shotguns. One of the club members assembled a group of verified Hawken products. While there were differences such as the squirrel rifles had brass hardware, the shotguns didn't have scroll trigger guards, didn't have set triggers, were double barreled and barrel lengths and calibers varied a bit. When all were together, they all looked like they were made by the same hand.

We do know that Sam Hawken's building style changed from the Pennsylvania/Maryland style rifles he made in Xenia, Ohio to the Hawken pattern that was consistently made in St. Louis by all the smiths in the shop. That would include rifles made by Hoffman and Campbell and John Gemmer.

As gunsmiths, any gun coming into the shop would be repaired to the style it came in. New guns would be made to the shop pattern.
 
Before you post some nonsense go study something and learn maybe just one fact. I try my best to be understanding to most intelligence levels but not In your case. You spew total ignorance on this topic. I try not to laugh at everyone but you are the exception. Unless you can provide some factual evidence. Crickets. Here comes your loser attack.
James

LOL!!
Your ability to predict the future is much better than your ability to understand the past!
But fear not.
We are here to bring you up to speed on how flexible skilled artisans can be, as well as small business practices then and now.

Jim Kibler seems to be able to design and create rifles from what we call different “ schools” assigned to various regions of the U. S. Do you actually think he is the first man to be able to do that?
How about Herschel House? While he has a preferred style, I would imagine he could lay out and build any kind of rifle he darned well wanted or needed to.
Chuck Edwards and Dave Person might take offense if you told them they were only skilled enough to make one kind of gun.

As stated above, we are here to help guide you down the righteous path of knowledge and enlightenment.
Walk toward The Light.
 
How Would a Gunsmith 250 years ago get all this knowledge of what was being built in other areas? Most people back then had never even been 50 miles from their home, depending on where you lived a trip to the county seat could take several days. A gunsmith might occasionally see a rifle from an adjourning county if someone passing through needed it repaired. Seeing a gun from a different colony would have been extremely rare. The idea that someone could walk into a gun shop in Lancaster and order a Tennesse rifle is ridiculous. How was the gunsmith going to even find out what a Tennessee rifle looked like? Reality is the people who lived around any Gunsmith shop probably had no idea that any other style of guns even existed.

Some people in those days travelled extensively. Daniel Boone, George Rogers Clark, Benedict Arnold, Michael Cresap, George Washington, Simon Girty, Christopher Gist, etc., come immediately to mind. A gunsmith would not need to travel that much to see a variety of guns, the guns would come to him. Guns were a valuable commodity and were extensively sold, traded, and transported. Some would end up hundreds of miles from their origin.
If a Tennessee gunmaker moved to PA, his knowledge of Tennessee rifle architecture would not evaporate into thin air. He would become adept at making the local styles, and continue to make and promote Tennessee rifles, since some customers would like to try something different. Same as now.
Consider this: an English or German gunsmith in the middle 1700’s gets tired of the dreary north European winters, or is fleeing creditors. Has heard there are business opportunities in America, and the taxes are much lower, and sunny weather is the norm in the south. So he books passage to Savanna, Georgia. A couple of years after his arrival, he is tired of the heat, humidity, snakes, and mosquito 10 months out of the year. And he begins to miss the crisp fall weather of his old homeland, but going back there is out of the question. Finds out central PA is not a bad place to live and work. Sells most of his tools, packs up what’s left of the smaller hand tools in a bag, and heads north by land traveling along the eastern side of the Appalachian mountains. Takes him two months to reach PA. Along the way, being an experienced gunsmith, he pays close attention to the guns people are carrying, seeing many examples of styles and types. Some he has seen in Europe or Georgia many times before, some are entirely new to him. But he remembers the details of what he saw.
When he sets up another shop in PA, he knows that he can build almost any style of gun a customer might want.
In real life there would have many variations on this story, but it illustrates my point.
It’s all about human nature.
Human nature.
Does not change.
 
Last edited:
I agree there were probably made a lot of smooth rifles, In thoughts on The Kentucky Rifle in The Golden Age Kindig list info from Leonard Reedy's journals. He list a number of guns made at $7.00 or less. At least one is listed as a smooth rifle so it is probably safe to say that many of the cheaper guns he made were probably smooth bore. Of all the repairs listed he freshed a barrel 128 times, way more than any other repair he made. Only 1 repair is listed as boring a barrel smooth.

I don't know what the measurements on that 40 cal were but when I retired it I was using a .400 ball and a .020 patch and that loaded very easy. There was still some VERY shallow rifling showing but the groups were starting to open up. No idea how many rounds I fired through it. I was a very active match shooter up until I injured my back in 2004.

If a smoothbore barrel was reamed out a little to a slightly larger size, without rifling it, could not that be called a freshing job also by some or most gunsmiths?
A lot of blacksmiths could ream a barrel also.
It was not uncommon for the same guy to do complete rifle or smoothbore builds and furnish full blacksmith services out of the same shop.
 
Jim Kibler seems to be able to design and create rifles from what we call different “ schools” assigned to various regions of the U. S. Do you actually think he is the first man to be able to do that?
And Jim Kibler is from the here and now. With access to research information, extant rifles from different areas within the original guns' time period, and the ability to travel easily to just about anywhere to see such guns or have them shipped to him, or even for customers or friends to bring guns to him from almost anywhere.
Seriously, what makes you think this was the case for a gunsmith in almost any location during the muzzleloading era? Do you have an example of a Lehigh style gun made by a known builder in Lancaster? How about an example of an SMR made in Bucks County,,,, during the time period? Or better still,,, because ot would change a lot of accepted gun knowledge about the period,,,,, how about providing an example of any style rifle, smooth or rifled, associated with anywhere from New York on south that was made by a New England gunsmith? Let's see that colonial New Hampshire or Goshen, Connecticut built Dickert style gun.
 
And Jim Kibler is from the here and now. With access to research information, extant rifles from different areas within the original guns' time period, and the ability to travel easily to just about anywhere to see such guns or have them shipped to him, or even for customers or friends to bring guns to him from almost anywhere.
Seriously, what makes you think this was the case for a gunsmith in almost any location during the muzzleloading era? Do you have an example of a Lehigh style gun made by a known builder in Lancaster? How about an example of an SMR made in Bucks County,,,, during the time period? Or better still,,, because ot would change a lot of accepted gun knowledge about the period,,,,, how about providing an example of any style rifle, smooth or rifled, associated with anywhere from New York on south that was made by a New England gunsmith? Let's see that colonial New Hampshire or Goshen, Connecticut built Dickert style gun.

Since most guns were not signed, it is usually pretty hard to identify who built what.
If an apprentice worked for the gunsmith Albrecht for 10 years, and went out on his own and set up shop 500 miles away, wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume he could build a rifle that would pass for one made by his Master if he wanted to? Even to the point of signing Albrecht’s name on the barrel if he were dishonest?

Someone like Kibler or others would only need to see one or two examples of a certain style of long gun to make a stylistic copy of any of them. No written guidelines or travel would be necessary even though a lot of gunsmiths would have moved from one region to another in the course of their lives.
 
Last edited:
No written guidelines or travel would be necessary
🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
Who said anything about written guidelines.
Of course travel would have been necessary on someone's part during the period. Someone would have had to put that different style gun in front of the builder somehow. That's the point, travel, of people or information that is easy now was barely possible then if at all.
 
Jim Kibler could also build a modern whiz-bang but he doesn't

Colonial builders of a certain style could build different styles but there is no evidence of it.

As usual you have no documentation only conjecture.
I do not think it is too far fetched to think that a gun maker might make a stock with a Roman Nose style and also have some one ask him for a stock with out the Roman Nose but more straight. I also think it is not unfathomable for a gun maker to get requests for a different style butt plate or trigger guard just to set the rifle apart from others, that the owner may have requested. It also could be that the gun maker has his own ideas and wants to see how they turn out. The gun maker may just get bored doing the same thing over and over. Who can truly say.
 
I do not think it is too far fetched to think that a gun maker might make a stock with a Roman Nose style and also have some one ask him for a stock with out the Roman Nose but more straight. I also think it is not unfathomable for a gun maker to get requests for a different style butt plate or trigger guard just to set the rifle apart from others, that the owner may have requested. It also could be that the gun maker has his own ideas and wants to see how they turn out. The gun maker may just get bored doing the same thing over and over. Who can truly say.
Great

Show us some documentation, show examples of a (insert colonial rifle builder here) rifle of different styles from the same maker. Some of them had slight changes over time but existing examples show the overall style did not change.

Could Have, should have, may have, doesn't cut it.
 
Great

Show us some documentation, show examples of a (insert colonial rifle builder here) rifle of different styles from the same maker. Some of them had slight changes over time but existing examples show the overall style did not change.

Could Have, should have, may have, doesn't cut it.
The fact that there are so many different styles and variations of those styles, "cuts" it for me! :ThankYou:
 
LOL!!
Your ability to predict the future is much better than your ability to understand the past!
But fear not.
We are here to bring you up to speed on how flexible skilled artisans can be, as well as small business practices then and now.

Jim Kibler seems to be able to design and create rifles from what we call different “ schools” assigned to various regions of the U. S. Do you actually think he is the first man to be able to do that?
How about Herschel House? While he has a preferred style, I would imagine he could lay out and build any kind of rifle he darned well wanted or needed to.
Chuck Edwards and Dave Person might take offense if you told them they were only skilled enough to make one kind of gun.

As stated above, we are here to help guide you down the righteous path of knowledge and enlightenment.
Walk toward The Light.
ALso Alexander, who wrote a definitive book on building Rifles. Many variations and styles!
 

Attachments

  • Muzzleloading Book.jpg
    Muzzleloading Book.jpg
    3.1 MB
BUT not from the same builder!!!!

Your welcome.
Well of course you are welcome to your opinion, but frankly , that does not make it gospel. There is no way YO or anyone else for that matter, could know what a gun maker in the 1700/1800's would or would not do. Documentation is scare, not complete and inconclusive at best. IMHO. Anyway, thanks for participating but I feel this subject has run it s course for me.:ThankYou:
 
LOL!!
Your ability to predict the future is much better than your ability to understand the past!
But fear not.
We are here to bring you up to speed on how flexible skilled artisans can be, as well as small business practices then and now.

Jim Kibler seems to be able to design and create rifles from what we call different “ schools” assigned to various regions of the U. S. Do you actually think he is the first man to be able to do that?
How about Herschel House? While he has a preferred style, I would imagine he could lay out and build any kind of rifle he darned well wanted or needed to.
Chuck Edwards and Dave Person might take offense if you told them they were only skilled enough to make one kind of gun.

As stated above, we are here to help guide you down the righteous path of knowledge and enlightenment.
Walk toward The Light.
So if ai were to call Jim Kibler and say hey Jim I want you to make me a John Bonewitz rifle what do you think his response would be?
 

Latest posts

Back
Top