Smooth rifles, were they made as new guns?

[Grenadier1758]

I do know that Jim Kibler had a long talk with the Hawken Rifle experts in the Gemmer Club. After learning about the complications of the architecture of the stocks and manufacturing complexities of the metal parts, he decided that the Woodsrunner should be his next project. He is well aware of the demand.

As long as we are speculating, Jim would probably suggest another custom builder for the Bonewitz rifle.

 

[Jedidiah]

So if ai were to call Jim Kibler and say hey Jim I want you to make me a John Bonewitz rifle what do you think his response would be?

Probably something like, who the heck is John Bonewitz? IMHO LOL!

 

[Jedidiah]

Some people in those days travelled extensively. Daniel Boone, George Rogers Clark, Benedict Arnold, Michael Cresap, George Washington, Simon Girty, Christopher Gist, etc., come immediately to mind. A gunsmith would not need to travel that much to see a variety of guns, the guns would come to him. Guns were a valuable commodity and were extensively sold, traded, and transported. Some would end up hundreds of miles from their origin.
If a Tennessee gunmaker moved to PA, his knowledge of Tennessee rifle architecture would not evaporate into thin air. He would become adept at making the local styles, and continue to make and promote Tennessee rifles, since some customers would like to try something different. Same as now.
Consider this: an English or German gunsmith in the middle 1700’s gets tired of the dreary north European winters, or is fleeing creditors. Has heard there are business opportunities in America, and the taxes are much lower, and sunny weather is the norm in the south. So he books passage to Savanna, Georgia. A couple of years after his arrival, he is tired of the heat, humidity, snakes, and mosquito 10 months out of the year. And he begins to miss the crisp fall weather of his old homeland, but going back there is out of the question. Finds out central PA is not a bad place to live and work. Sells most of his tools, packs up what’s left of the smaller hand tools in a bag, and heads north by land traveling along the eastern side of the Appalachian mountains. Takes him two months to reach PA. Along the way, being an experienced gunsmith, he pays close attention to the guns people are carrying, seeing many examples of styles and types. Some he has seen in Europe or Georgia many times before, some are entirely new to him. But he remembers the details of what he saw.
When he sets up another shop in PA, he knows that he can build almost any style of gun a customer might want.
In real life there would have many variations on this story, but it illustrates my point.
It’s all about human nature.
Human nature.
Does not change.

Good story, very feasible, I like it!

 

[Brokennock]

Probably something like, who the heck is John Bonewitz? IMHO LOL!

I thought the subject ran its course for you?

I feel this subject has run it s course for me

Why not just admit you also can't back up what you are saying and admit you could be wrong?
You seem to deliberately take replies out of context, and reply in ways that make me think you don't understand what people are saying to you.
So if the,"topic has run its course," for you,,,, good riddance.

 

[Jedidiah]

I thought the subject ran its course for you?

Why not just admit you also can't back up what you are saying and admit you could be wrong?
You seem to deliberately take replies out of context, and reply in ways that make me think you don't understand what people are saying to you.
So if the,"topic has run its course," for you,,,, good riddance.

So you have all the answers? Ok, I'll just listen to you from now on. makes it easy for me.

 

[user 34486]

And there it is right on que... What every discussion on this forum ends in..... Russell's teapot.

 

[Jedidiah]

And there it is right on que... What every discussion on this forum ends in..... Russell's teapot.

with so many "experts" what do you really expect!??

 

[Brokennock]

And another one with an application for the lead box.

 

[French Colonial]

I actually love it when there are posts that go against conventional wisdom or people bring up little known facts about the time period that interests us.

But they must have some documentation or physical proof or they are not valid, take the many posts regarding Hawken rifles on this site. So many GREAT examples and different configurations, would everyone take the time to research before posting what a difference it would make.

 

[Jedidiah]

I actually love it when there are posts that go against conventional wisdom or people bring up little known facts about the time period that interests us.

But they must have some documentation or physical proof or they are not valid, take the many posts regarding Hawken rifles on this site. So many GREAT examples and different configurations, would everyone take the time to research before posting what a difference it would make.

Yes, time is a detriment to getting good information. Most people do not want to take the time to do the research on many things, hence the reliance on the internet, wikipedia & U tube as the fountains of all knowledge!

 

[Brokennock]

I actually love it when there are posts that go against conventional wisdom or people bring up little known facts about the time period that interests us.

But they must have some documentation or physical proof or they are not valid, take the many posts regarding Hawken rifles on this site. So many GREAT examples and different configurations, would everyone take the time to research before posting what a difference it would make.

Well said.
A differing opinion or viewpoint is fantastic. But needs support.
When someone can't or won't support it, or worse acts offended that they were even asked to do so, the conversation is pointless. When they are asked specific questions about their differing view and ignore it and just make more argumentative comments,,, we become like hamsters in a wheel.
We don't learn anything if we only discuss with people of like minds.
We also don't help anyone else if we don't explain and support our position.

 

[JamesT]

No. They purchased a rifle from the local maker when necessary.

 

[JamesT]

Not an inkling of a clue do you have on the subject.

I do not think it is too far fetched to think that a gun maker might make a stock with a Roman Nose style and also have some one ask him for a stock with out the Roman Nose but more straight. I also think it is not unfathomable for a gun maker to get requests for a different style butt plate or trigger guard just to set the rifle apart from others, that the owner may have requested. It also could be that the gun maker has his own ideas and wants to see how they turn out. The gun maker may just get bored doing the same thing over and over. Who can truly say.

No clue of the trade man. Requesting another style trigger guard or buttplate? Where did they order them from TOTW? Bahahaha. They cast their own. They had a trade and a system set up to make a living man. Folks didn't surf the internet or travel outside their locale. They bought what was available. If I'm wrong then we would have no schools of rifles to study. Some people have no understanding of life in America before the internet.

 

[JamesT]

Since most guns were not signed, it is usually pretty hard to identify who built what.
If an apprentice worked for the gunsmith Albrecht for 10 years, and went out on his own and set up shop 500 miles away, wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume he could build a rifle that would pass for one made by his Master if he wanted to? Even to the point of signing Albrecht’s name on the barrel if he were dishonest?

Someone like Kibler or others would only need to see one or two examples of a certain style of long gun to make a stylistic copy of any of them. No written guidelines or travel would be necessary even though a lot of gunsmiths would have moved from one region to another in the course of their lives.

Not necessarily if you know what your are looking at. Not trying to be negative honestly. I'm glad you got into muzzleloading this week. Listen and learn some more.

 

[JamesT]

Good story, very feasible, I like it!

Good story or tall tale yes. No facts show a silly narrative. I can't believe the ignorance in this thread. I am starting to feel like someone is yanking my chain and I fell for it. Shame one me. Bahaha

 

[Jedidiah]

Not an inkling of a clue do you have on the subject.

No clue of the trade man. Requesting another style trigger guard or buttplate? Where did they order them from TOTW? Bahahaha. They cast their own. They had a trade and a system set up to make a living man. Folks didn't surf the internet or travel outside their locale. They bought what was available. If I'm wrong then we would have no schools of rifles to study. Some people have no understanding of life in America before the internet.

i did not realize we were only talking about Trade Guns LOL! Sily me! OH well, I am sure you know the answers with your first hand knowledge having been there. Have a great day!

 

[Sun City]

If its smooth…..it ain’t a RIFLE!

 

[tenngun]

If its smooth…..it ain’t a RIFLE!

That’s a trueism…. Sort of.
Today we have ‘shotguns’ made specifically for slug.
Fowlers were made on the past, but often used with ball and rifles were made with straight rifleing that did nothing to spin the ball.
Smooth rifles, a term used in the eighteenth century referred to a particular type of gun.

 

[SOLANCO]

That’s a trueism…. Sort of.
Today we have ‘shotguns’ made specifically for slug.
Fowlers were made on the past, but often used with ball and rifles were made with straight rifleing that did nothing to spin the ball.
Smooth rifles, a term used in the eighteenth century referred to a particular type of gun.

I do not doubt you in the least. But I am a 75 YO curmudgeon who has had a life long love affair with the English language. The term "smooth rifle" makes my head ache. Reads like an oxymoron.

 

[SLOTHEAD]

One. Two. Threeeeee. Three.

I would think you would have to define/specify “wear out”