Smooth rifles, were they made as new guns?

[French Colonial]

If “styles “ were so rigidly adhered to, why, to my knowledge at least, are there no two or more surviving examples of what we call “ Kentucky “ or “ Pennsylvania “ Rifles that are exactly alike?

Because they were not making bench copies or using CNC machines or duplicators

However, most colonial gunsmiths made rifles that, while not copies, were similar enough that learned people in the field can attribute unsigned rifles to them because they included the same elements over and over again.

 

[Quicksilver]

However, most colonial gunsmiths made rifles that, while not copies, were similar enough that learned people in the field can attribute unsigned rifles to them because they included the same elements over and over again.

Big difference in in how a gunsmith builds guns compared to the job of someone that works in a armory.

At times this assigning rifles to a maker can be more of a throw it against the wall and hope it sticks approach.
For instance makers had apprentices that built guns in the same style and at times the guns have been assigned to the wrong maker or will be listed as being built by one or the other. Some guns have been found to have two signatures and single guns have been found to have multiple architectural characteristics from different makers/locations making it hard to assign that gun to a maker or a area.
By in large the historians do well in their work figuring out who, and were to assign a gun to, and if they don’t know they list it as such.

 

[Sun City]

You won’t live long enough to wear a barrel out!

 

[Sun City]

Again….if it’s smooth it ain’t a rifle! I can’t be held accountable for the ignorance of the English language by those in a past century for not understanding what spiral grooves in a barrel were called or the purpose therefor!

 

[senseisugarbear]

In my OPINION (and it's just that, I can't back it up with facts,,,Just EXPERIENCE) If I were a Western exploring settler in the days of yore, I would buy a NEW smooth bore. PRB for big game or as a first defensive shot, or SHOT for a follow up fight and small game and birds. NO one can keep fighting after a load of shot in the face, neck, and chest. And I imagine I'D be eating much more small game as I were on the move.I've never owned one.but I use my modern shotguns more than my modern rifles in hunting......WHAT do you keep for night time protection? A BLINDED INTRUDER AIN"T gonna do me much harm.....Be Safe>>>>>>>>Wally

 

[Redlemur60]

If it takes 10,000 rounds to start to "wear" a muzzleloader, you're probably at, at least 3 or 4× the cost of your rifle at that point in components burned .

Even if I cast my own bullets or balls and regardless if you pop a 5 cent cap or strike a flint that costs money and has a lifespan...plus your "prime"....you're currently still looking at probably about 50 cents per BOOM these days

So I doubt that I'll put 10,000 Minies or round balls, bullets etc through any of my rifles anytime soon when I consider it a good month if I fire 200 rounds through any particular rifle

If I do invest the $4-5000 needed to put 10,000 through a rifle and accuracy falls off, and the lock still works, I guess I'll just hang it on my wall and retire it. Even my "best" muzzleloading rifles are probably worth just under $2000 so if I get 10,000 through them before I die, I guess I win

I conjecture that the death of most ml from that era died from neglect
(RUST)! NOT SHOT OUT.
I ALSO conjecture that a look at classical craftsmen training ,included much more classical ART training . Especially euroean training. Just a thought.

 

[Stantheman86]

Again….if it’s smooth it ain’t a rifle! I can’t be held accountable for the ignorance of the English language by those in a past century for not understanding what spiral grooves in a barrel were called or the purpose therefor!

Also how any shoulder arm was a "gun" back then , a revolver was a "pistol " and you had rifled-muskets as well as rifle-muskets despite the fact that a "musket" is a smoothbore military weapon.

Calling a rifle a "gun" now kinda implies ignorance or lack of knowledge but in official writings and logs , rifles and muskets were called "guns"

 

[tenngun]

Again….if it’s smooth it ain’t a rifle! I can’t be held accountable for the ignorance of the English language by those in a past century for not understanding what spiral grooves in a barrel were called or the purpose therefor!

This seems to really get your goat. But…. We all have our pet peeves. When some one tells me they will be with me shortly I curl my toes.
So
Another term was rifle mounted fusil.
You can get used to saying that in a short time.

 

[Jedidiah]

Ok, so help me out here. A lot of knowledge and exeprince on this forum regatidmg Smooth bore, rifle , msukets ,trade guns whatever yo want to call them. I just rec'd my barrel back from Bobby Hoyt. I had a GPR .50 barrel bored out to .58 Smooth. It was cut to 26in also. I want a short handy quick to should rifle/smoothbore that I can do wht ever i want with wheter it is round ball or shot. I measured the bor/miked it at .577-.578. So, my question is, looking at the pics, i have a .529-.530 round ball with various patched. The ball and .010 patch are an easy fit. The ball and 0.15 patch are still easy with thumb pressure. The .018 ticking patch requires a decent amount of thumb pressure but still relatively easy. The .020 patch is obviously the tightest, and requires good solid thumb pressure to start? I know that most people use a larger ball diameter. Has anyone ever used this size in a .58/24 gauge smooth rifle?

 

[Redlemur60]

Patches,? We dont need no stinkin patches!but seriously what is even the point of a patch,it aint gonna make dat ball spin . And there are an awful lot of ways to load dat! Look into wads hard card buck and ball,cornmeal loads and shot! You have a lot of options! Why load like it was a rifle?unless of course you have good reason,and there are plenty!just dont leave empty space ,and youll be fine!(also dont shoot stupid stuff like dirt rocks nails )
Not good for gun YO!
BURN POWDER!

 

[Jedidiah]

Patches,? We dont need no stinkin patches!but seriously what is even the point of a patch,it aint gonna make dat ball spin . And there are an awful lot of ways to load dat! Look into wads hard card buck and ball,cornmeal loads and shot! You have a lot of options! Why load like it was a rifle?unless of course you have good reason,and there are plenty!just dont leave empty space ,and youll be fine!(also dont shoot stupid stuff like dirt rocks nails )
Not good for gun YO!
BURN POWDER!

The reason I was asking is, I have alot of .54 cal stuff, balls & patches so it would be easy to use. I figure the patch primarily holds the ball in place so the powder does not run out if you tip the barrel. LOL! I was just interested in knowing people's experience using a smooth bore with a PRB, what size they think is best, how tight is tight? or is there a better alternative?

 

[Redlemur60]

The reason I was asking is, I have alot of .54 cal stuff, balls & patches so it would be easy to use. I figure the patch primarily holds the ball in place so the powder does not run out if you tip the barrel. LOL! I was just interested in knowing people's experience using a smooth bore with a PRB, what size they think is best, how tight is tight? or is there a better alternative?

Ya just make you some hard card
From cereal box or coke case to hold it all down and possibly use some corn meal to hug the ball. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT IDEA. YOU could also get a mold and recst 570?

 

[tenngun]

The reason I was asking is, I have alot of .54 cal stuff, balls & patches so it would be easy to use. I figure the patch primarily holds the ball in place so the powder does not run out if you tip the barrel. LOL! I was just interested in knowing people's experience using a smooth bore with a PRB, what size they think is best, how tight is tight? or is there a better alternative?

Patch and wadded at 50 yards

62 TFC with rear sight

 

[RAEDWALD]

Tangential to the nomenclature issue: when the British, post Mutiny, rearmed their Indian sepoys, they kept the rifled Pattern 1853 for European troops and made a smoothbore version for Indian sepoys. This was termed the Pattern 1859 Enfield Musket. It came with front and rear sights, just simpler than the Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifle sights.

So the rifle was a ‘Rifle’ and the smoothbore a ‘Musket’.

Yes I am aware that the full name of the Pattern 1853 is a Rifle Musket. Not at all confusing. Nor is the Altered Pattern 1842 Sea Service Rifled Musket which is a smoothbore that had been later rifled.

I would suggest that all the variations of nomenclature are valid for the person who chooses to use their preferred name. No one is wrong nor right. Just different.

 

[Jedidiah]

Patch and wadded at 50 yardsView attachment 189024
62 TFC with rear sight

Can you give the specifics of the load? What does "wadded" mean? What type of wad etc. This al new to me, thanks

 

[tenngun]

Can you give the specifics of the load? What does "wadded" mean? What type of wad etc. This al new to me, thanks

70 grains 2f, .600 ball in .15 patch greased with lard or mink oil, I use both and can’t tell the difference in my shooting
Wadded means the ball is bare shot with a wad.
Tow that’s been greased with lard, a small ball about an inch in diameter. Pushed in to the bore tge ball is shoved right in to the top so it best a bit around it, then another wad that’s just a pinch of tow tamed down on top

 

[Jedidiah]

70 grains 2f, .600 ball in .15 patch greased with lard or mink oil, I use both and can’t tell the difference in my shooting
Wadded means the ball is bare shot with a wad.
Tow that’s been greased with lard, a small ball about an inch in diameter. Pushed in to the bore tge ball is shoved right in to the top so it best a bit around it, then another wad that’s just a pinch of tow tamed down on top

thanks, appreciate the info!