Smoothbore accuracy without a rear sight, HOW??

[Snow on the Roof]

I've been able to get 3" groups at 50 yards with my .20 gauge but it has a rear sight. The 12 gauge NW gun is giving me fits. I hate to dove tail an original Curly Gosmoski gun but...
How do you guys who compete in the NW gun competitions do it?

 

[rich pierce]

Ha ha, I'm not a competitive shooter but maybe they use instinctive shooting like in primitive archery. :grin: More seriously I think it's repetition and muscle memory in mounting the gun and sight picture. And I am SERIOUSLY jealous of your groups at 50 yards! :hatsoff:

 

[Snow on the Roof]

Ha ha, I'm not a competitive shooter but maybe they use instinctive shooting like in primitive archery. :grin: More seriously I think it's repetition and muscle memory in mounting the gun and sight picture. And I am SERIOUSLY jealous of your groups at 50 yards! :hatsoff:

Let me quailify this by saying the 3" groups are off a bench and not all the time...

As far as the archery anology, I'm a gap shooter or as Mr. Hill put it" indirect aiming"

 

[Billnpatti]

The "secret" is that you use the tang screw as a rear "sight". Carefully turn the tang screw so that the slot lines up in a vertical position. While you cannot actually sight through the slot, it serves as a reference more than an actual rear sight. It is a legal method of sighting a smoothbore in any smoothbore match. The rules do not allow for any rear sight that is above the line of sight. The tang screw is just below the line of sight so using it as a reference is completely legal. It is amazing just how accurate you can get with just a bit of practice. :thumbsup:

 

[bangfxr]

That's how I shoot my smoothie and barrel alignment don't hurt either.

 

[Snow on the Roof]

That's how I shoot my smoothie and barrel alignment don't hurt either.

By barrel alignment are you referring to bending the barrel? The problem I have with this NWTG is I shoot low. Very low. Like 12" low :shocked2: at 25 yards...Windage is good just low. If I use the tang screw as a rear sight I shoot even lower.

 

[biliff]

You need to see more barrel. Mount the gun, stack two quarters on the breech flat and bring the front sight up so you can see all of it over the quarters. Remove the quarters without changing your gun mount. (A second person comes in handy for handling the quarters). You should now be seeing enough barrel to bring your point of impact up and pretty close at 25 yds. The trick is to remember what this looks like and repeat it consistently.

 

[Leatherbark]

Yeah I have to remember how much of the round part of the barrel to show sticking above the octogon section when elevating the barrel. With my 20 gauge fowler I use about 3/4 inch of the round part of the barrel showing when sighting down the tube and remember how to do it consistantly.
My fowler made by Jackie Brown has a depression made into the cheekpiece area that your jaw fits in that seems like it was his intention for making you cheek the gun more consistant.

Bob

 

[Canute Rex]

I use the tang screw plus sighting by the barrel flat and point of aim. That is, I ignore the height of the front sight and use it merely as a left/right reference.

Put your eye down at the level of the top of the barrel. Lift your head/eye up a little so you can see the whole barrel, then down a little so the front sight starts to disappear. Then go back up a bit so you are sighting directly along the plane of the barrel through the base of the front sight. Now put that sight picture in the middle of a target and see where that hits. Adjust your point of aim on the target. You might have to do a 12 o'clock hold, but it will be consistent.

 

[Many Klatch]

You can file or dremel a notch in the tang that also acts as a rear sight. The rules say "no rear sight above the plane of the barrel" so a notch in the tang or an oversized head on the tang bolt are OK. You can make an oversized head tang bolt by finding a hex head bolt with the correct thread to match the one in the gun. Chuck the bolt into a power drill and use a file to turn the hex head into a rounded profile. Then hacksaw a notch. That will give you a big sight that should give you a good rear reference. As long as the top of the bolt does not touch a straight edge laid on the barrel you are legal.

Now as to your front sight picture you will have to learn how much of the front of the barrel you will have to show. To be consistent you will need to always use the same point for your cheek weld. Once you learn how much front barrel to see, make a drawing and put it in your shooting box. Check the picture before each match.

You will eventually wind up bending the barrel, but that is a whole nother thread.

Many Klatch

 

[Keb]

My front sight is no more than 1/8" tall. I also pounded a brass tack in the cheek of my Northwest Trade Gun. Allows me to put my face in the same place every time.

 

[pargent]

+1 thats all it takes ,flinching is another matter. :thumbsup:

 

[Billnpatti]

You don't actually settle the front sight in the tang screw slot, you just set the front bead on top of the tang scrrew slot and develop a feeling for the amount of hold over or under that you need. Once you are able to guage the gap between the top of the front sight and the target, you will become amazed at just how accurate you can get. It takes a bit of practice but it will come if you work at it. Of course, a smoothbore without a rear sight will never shoot like a rifle with a rear sight. That is why they have separate matches for them. The fun is in the challenge. It is like the difference between a muzzleloading rifle and a modern centerfire rifle.....the fun is in the challenge.

 

[Billnpatti]

Thanks for the correction on the correct location of the rear sight. I knew what I meant, I just didn't say it correctly. :thumbsup:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I am amazed at how many shooters get the part about the eye being the rear sight and raising its height yet do this by hovering over the stock or locking the jaw on the side of the gun instead of building the comb up and actually getting into the gun.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I am amazed at how many shooters get the part about the eye being the rear sight and raising its height yet do this by hovering over the stock or locking the jaw on the side of the gun instead of building the comb up and actually getting into the gun.

I am amazed at how many don't realize that you need to see the barrel to raise the impact and front sight. You will shoot low if you only see the fromt bead or bayonet lug. That sight has to be raised and I want to see the barrel about equal to the height of the sight. You really don't need to bend the barrel.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I was told, by someone who knows, to develop an 'anchor point' that puts my ball on center. As yet, I haven't developed this anchor point. Others have referred to it as muscle memory and I'm sure they are right also. I'll be trying the tips others have given. Thus far I get good groups but they move all over the place.

 

[matt denison]

Hey Snow.

No, you don't want to put a dovetail in the barrel of that Curly Gostomsky 12 gage. Those barrels are quite thin to begin with and taking out another 1/16 inch could cause a problem.

12" low at 25 yards is serious. It is hard to move the POI up that far by simply filing the front sight. My very first trade gun shot low too. I learned to "show some barrel" in my sight picture and with practice it worked really well for me. The alternative is to bend your barrel. It can and has ben done successfully by me and many others on this forum and all over the country.

I also don't go with the theory that your eyeball is your rear sight. The plane of the top of the barrel should be consistent and that has nothing to do with your eyeball being a rear sight. Now that I have riled up half of the readers on this thread I'll rile up the other half and say that if you want to be accurate (I define accurate as 4" or less at 50 yars) then forget the instinctive shooting idea. If you want rifle-like accuracy then you have to aim where you want the ball to hit.

Guys shoot bow and arrow instinctively because ..they don't have any other choice. You do have choices shooting your trade gun and IMHO they are all bettr than trying to lob a ball into the ten ring instinctively. :stir:

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Put a blank piece of paper up at 25 yards. Put a small aiming dot dead center of the paper. shoot at this dot holding the barrel dead level on the dot. When you look down the barrel you see nothing but the top curve of the barrel with the dot on top of your front sight. This will show where your barrel throws the ball.
If you hit below the dot for your next shot, show about 1/8th more barrel in your sight picture. You will not believe how much this will raise the impact.
If the ball hits over the dot you will have a six o'clock sight picture which requires you to develop a hold under sight picture. If you are holding level on the dot and the shot group is on the out side edges of the paper, this will require a barrel bending. It is also important to make sure you anchor the butt plate and your head the same way each time you shoot. Hopefully your groups will be close to the dot so only a minor adjustment of the sight picture is needed.
Fire five shots holding dead on at the dot. This group will show how far from the center your smooth bore is shooting.

 

[Snow on the Roof]

I am amazed at how many shooters get the part about the eye being the rear sight and raising its height yet do this by hovering over the stock or locking the jaw on the side of the gun instead of building the comb up and actually getting into the gun.

Capt.James, how would you build up the comb? I have given this some thought and realize that the comb on most smoothies are too low for my frame. As mentioned above I tend to "hover" over the stock to raise the POI but I have no consistant point of contact. Back to the archery anology, in my 30 + years of shooting and studying the longbow I have developed a consistant form with a firm anchor. Seems to me the same principles would apply when shooting a smoothy w/o a physical rear sight after all I don't use a rear sight on the LB. I have considered using thin cardboard in ever increasing layers, until the POI is correct, I would use 3m Blue tape as a temporary hold. Once the height is correct what then? I have thought of heavy felt, much like 3/8" felt carpet pad, then cover with leather. I have a small tanned buckskin for this and perhaps small tacks to hold. What do you think? Am I on the right track? How would you do it? I once saw a photo of one of Curly's personal guns and it had the cheek hollowed out considerably. Do you think this could be nesesary to prevent windage going right with the built up comb?