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Smoothbore at 100 m

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Sebastian, thanks for the video. Have you ever tried this with a pre-rolled cartridge with a smaller diameter ball which was common in the 18th century? I believe the French used .62 call balls in their .69ish muskets and the Brits .69 cal in their .75ish Brown Besses. Did you swab the barrel after each shot or just reload and shoot again? I remember shooting .735 round balls in my Pedersoli Bess and using .010 patching it became really tough to load after a couple of shots.
 
The Pedersoli Bess that I have does not have a patent breech. The breech plug is just behind the touch hole. I wouldn't buy a gun with a patent breech. I don't see any need for them in a flintlock.

Many Klatch
 
That`s what I needed to know because of my experience with a Pedersoli hatfield which is becoming an Early Virginia/Lancaster rifle right now. Thank you, that helped.
 
Dan Phariss said:
Va.Manuf.06 said:
I don't know guys, out of five shots he hit the actual target aimed at 3 times. The hangfire was a little disconcerting but for an "as issue musket", not bad. Sebastian, in my experience, and at just over 100 yards, darn good shooting! :)

He hit the part that counted once. One might have hit a leg.
The accuracy of the issue SB musket with issue ammunition is well documented by military officers at the time. This test is typical in its result. Remember that from the military stand point the misses may well have hit someone in the rear ranks and this was just as good as hitting the front rank.
I am fairly certain that I can hit a man silhouette every shot at 100 with a 50 cal smooth rifle I have. But ball size, patch thickness and powder charge are all critical. Use a 490 ball and lighter loads and it will not kill a rabbit every shot at 25 yards.
But back in the day a good shot could do about as well at 300 with a rifle using a rest. Head shots were considered doable at 200 and my testing has confirmed this though with modern barrels.
Having shot an original 1814 Common Rifle I would guess the slow ignition was "typical".
Other than for use on rather large novelty targets at matches the smoothbore is about a 50-75 yard gun.

Dan




Good post Dan. The ball he is using is larger than the standard military ball which was .64 or .65 caliber in the US service and I suspect the same in French, etc. as well. When the bore was clean, the cartridge paper would be rammed wrapped around the ball but as firing progressed and the bore became foul, the cartridge paper would be discarded or loaded on top of the ball to help it not roll down the barrel when leveled for fire - speed was all important, accuracy took a back seat.

We also have to remember that soldiers were trained to load and fire rapidly, consistent loading was not done in a modern, target range sense. While the cartridges were pretty consistent in the amount of powder and size of ball, the soldier loaded and primed differently under different circumstances. If experienced in combat and depending how many casualties were being taken around him, he might be fairly consistent. However if young and not well trained, he would likely accidentally or purposely dump powder on the ground (the later to reduce recoil) or put too much or too little primming in the pan. A hang-fire or no ignition would then result and then, often not realizing what had happened, he prime again and then dump another load on top of the first! :shocked2: The next load might go off and recoil would be stunning. (Imagine what would happen if this happened a couple of times - it did!!)

Also, we have to consider that the placement of the touch hole in a military musket was not an art. A hole was drilled in about the right location and if the bit wondered when this was being done, it ended up where it did and as long as the gun went off when it was proofed the last time, it passed, the inspector was not going to worry about it. The musket was cleaned and it was put into storage for issue when needed, it did not go back to the armorer for adjustment so that ignition would be faster and accuracy would be improved. Again, accuracy was not important, speed and volume of fire were what counted, as long as the gun would fire, that was all that counted. In that light, Sebastion's shooting is very good.
 
I never didnt measure patch thickness.I've just tried few of them with diferent thicknes and chose one with it was possible to push it down the barrell after few shots.But I think there is a diferent problem.I've looked today into barrel with flashlight and I saw something strange.Here is a drawing:
Drawing
Ditch in breech isn't drilled properly in my opinion.Axis of ditch isn't the same with axis of vent.Vent is very close to surface of breech plug.
Flame don't have enough space to start ignition.
Maybe I shall remove breech and fix it myself ?
 
Very good shooting! Open your touch hole to 1.95mm, Get your breech plug face repaired and your hangfire should be decreased by at least half. From watching the video these are your only problems you are an excellent marksman. :thumbsup:
 
Sebastian said:
I never didnt measure patch thickness.I've just tried few of them with diferent thicknes and chose one with it was possible to push it down the barrell after few shots.But I think there is a diferent problem.I've looked today into barrel with flashlight and I saw something strange.Here is a drawing:
Drawing
Ditch in breech isn't drilled properly in my opinion.Axis of ditch isn't the same with axis of vent.Vent is very close to surface of breech plug.
Flame don't have enough space to start ignition.
Maybe I shall remove breech and fix it myself ?

If you have some mechanical ability its not a tough fix.

Smooth bores often shoot better with a somewhat undersized ball and a heavy patch. Ball .020-.035" under bore size and a patch thick enough the need a firm push to load.
Most seem to like fairly heavy charges of powder as well. The paper cartridge service charge was something like 120-140 grains of powder with some used to prime.
I suspect with load developement you will see a significant increase in accuracy. Much better that the "issue" ammunition would produce.
Dan
 
I have seen originals with that ditch in the breechplug. It isn't the best situation.

You could pull the breechplug and polish and smooth that ditch out. Or you could drill out the touch hole and install a liner. The new liner could be moved a slight distance from the location of the original touch hole. Maybe a little bit forward from the breech plug or possibly a little higher if it is too low in the pan.

I shoot a Pedersoli Bess Carbine in competition quite a bit. I find that a .715 ball and a .010 spit patch over 90 grains of 2F will shoot very accurately. The thin patch seems to work for many of my smoothbore shooting friends. We believe that with a smoothbore all the patching needs to do is act as a gas check and keep the ball from rattling as it comes out of the barrel. You should be able to start the ball with your finger and ram the ball home in one smooth push of the ramrod.

Many Klatch
 
But I think there is a diferent problem.I've looked today into barrel with flashlight and I saw something strange.Here is a drawing:
Drawing
Ditch in breech isn't drilled properly in my opinion.Axis of ditch isn't the same with axis of vent.Vent is very close to surface of breech plug.

You will sometimes see this in original guns. More often it is necessary in new as the breech plug is made longer than the originals and the lock plate is made based on the original. Then the touch hole placement means that the touch hole is behind the face of the breech plug and a trough or ditch has to be made in order for the heat to reach the powder. This is one area that will be prone to catching fouling as the gun is shot.

You do not want to shorten the length of the breech plug to fix this problem. Then the barrel threads are exposed to the fouling. The exposed threads will weaken the barrel. Do make sure that the trough or ditch is kept clean with pipe cleaners. I would recommend that after you shoot, you push a pipe cleaner through the touch hole and that you leave the pin out when you load. That way you will have powder closer to the pan, but most of the fuse effect will be minimized.
 
As long as that groove in the breechplug is in line with the vent hole, It should not be that much of a problem. You do need a good vent pick, and I am not in love with those thin pieces of piano wire some use.

I make my own vent picks by forging them from coat hangers, or some other soft steel I find. I want the pick to be long enough that my big fat fingers, and hand can hold onto it, and find it in my possibles bag. About 4-5 inches long.

I flatten the round steel stock after heating it, then square the sides, then twist the steel to make interesting, but purely decorative designs to the shaft.

On one end, I form a loop- circle, or once, a heart-shape( just to see if I could do it) so that the pick is more like a latch-key.

The front end of the pick is filed to a point, and filed thin enough to enter the vent hole easily, and extend all the way across to the other side of the bore.

Then, I filed 2 flats on opposite sides, and rounded the "point", so I didn't have to worry much about stabbing myself with it. The two flat sides allows me to move granules of powder around to open a hole in the powder charge. The hole allows the heat from the burning prime to ignite many granules of powder all at once, which speeds ignition of the powder charge in the barrel.

When I am done making the pick, I heat it up red hotand quench it in oil. That gives it a permanent coat of black, that protects the pick from rusting, and leaves a nice surface that is easy to clean.

In your case, it will be perfect for keeping that groove clean during a long string of shots. If the vent is located at the end of the groove, you will get some gas "cleaning" of the groove as gases come back out the vent. Whether the gas will clear all the crud out of that groove depends on the gun.

Don't hesitate to put some soap and water down the barrel and shake it up to work out crud that builds up against that breechplug. It will build up, simply because of that groove. Pour the water and soap out, and then rinse out the barrel a couple of times, to remove the soap. Then dry the barrel with patches.

Finally, use Alcohol to flush out the back of that barrel, as that will help dissolve any oils and grease that may be part of that crud.

If you oil the gun for storage, ALWAYS flush the barrel with alcohol( inexpensive rubbing alcohol works fine), and use some patches with alcohol on them to clean all the oil and congealed grease out of the barrel before leaving home. If you store the gun muzzle up, no matter how fine an oil that is used to protect the bore, some of it will fall down to the breechplug and dry out partially, or " congeal".

Don't use petroleum based oils in the bore for storing the gun between shooting sessions, either.( Use vegetable oils, or mineral oils, instead) Petroleum and black powder don't mix well- and in fact produce Tars and solid residues that can't easily be removed with soap and water, unless the barrel is allowed to soak for more than 24 hours. :cursing:

I have had to use Acetone to clean out the crud that has built up in barrels due to use of petroleum oils, and inadequate cleaning attempts by prior users. Acetone is a very strong, and harsh solvent to use. Rubbing Alcohol is much nicer, and will do the job if used on a regular basis.

To clean the gun, you don't have to remove the barrel from the stock. Just use a gun cradle that lets you rest the barrel upside down-- ie, the top flat is at the bottom of the cradle-- when you are using your range rod and cleaning patches to clean and dry the barrel.

If you have one of those clamp- on devices( Track of the wolf sells them, as do other suppliers) that seal the vent hole, and a tube that can be run into a bottle or bucket of water, that is the best way to clean a flintlock without getting soap and water, or crud on your stock. If you don't have the device, or it won't work with your particular gun, then as long as the vent hole is on the bottom when you are pouring or forcing water or alcohol through the vent during cleaning, gravity will see that the fluids, and anything they carry, will stay off your stock, and out of the barrel mortise.

Now, plug the vent, with a toothpick, or a carved plug that fits tight enough to not leak, but not so tight you can't get it out again. Pour skin temperature(tepid) water and soap down the barrel and, with your thumb over the barrel, shake the barrel up and down. Pour the water, soap and crud out. Repeat the process until the water seems clear.

Now remove the plug from the vent hole, and with the gun rotated so that the vent is facing down- over a bucket or sink, wet a cleaning patch with water and liquid detergent, and pump it back and forth down the barrel. It will come out dirty- at least gray in color.

Holding the muzzle up at an angle, but with that vented down towards the sink or bucket, pour some water down into the barrel, and insert your cleaning rod, jag, and clean, damp( water only), patch and push that water out the vent as fast as you can by pumping on the rod. The damp patch should seal air between the jag and the vent, and the air will force the water out at high speed. This should scour the face of that breechplug, and the groove to clean out any remaining crud. Repeat this several times, until the patches come out clean.

Then dry the barrel with dry patches, and then use alcohol to do the final drying. It will get into any corners your cleaning patches can't reach.

Occasionally, you have to use a patch on top of a bore brush, to get down into the corners of the grooves, and I recommend you dampen that patch( sloppy wet) with the alcohol. It not only helps to dissolve the last bit of residue in those corners, but lubricates, and then dries the corners as you are doing it. The alcohol will be pushed out the vent, too, of course. Nothing wrong with that as long as it lands in the sink or bucket.

Wipe off the outside of your stock and barrel, removing the powder residue from around the vent, and clean the lock and flashpan. Set them aside to dry, and oil, while you dump out and clean that bucket of dirty water. This will give the alcohol time to evaporate, removing any last droplets of water from the barrel.

Now is the time to grease or oil the barrel, inside and out, to protect it during storage between shooting sessions. By using tepid water rather, than boiling or very hot water, you avoid the problem of flash rusting your bore. Flash rust occurs when the heat from the barrel causes the water to evaporate so fast that the steel actually corrodes from that action.

If you MUST use hot water when cleaning, then at very least, use cool water for rinsing the barrel to reduce that temperature of the barrel and prevent the flash rust. A little flash rust one time is not going to harm the accuracy of the gun. But, a lot of flash rusting over time is going to damage the lands and eat at the grooves, and then you will develop troubles that could have been avoided.

I use bore butter, but am testing Ballistol, in the barrel of my rifle. So far it seems to be working as well as bore butter works. I still use bore butter on the outside of the barrel to protect the barrel from the acids from fingerprints. The wax it leaves behind when the oils dry out gives that protection.

Always do a visual inspection of the gun's bore when you finish cleaning. I look down the barrel while having a bright light shine into the vent hole. There are also small lights available that can be slid down the bore to let you see the condition of the entire bore. And, I have a small reflective mirror that does much the same thing, that is dropped down the barrel, and then dumped out when finished inspecting the bore.

The problem with these latter approaches is they don't let you see the face of the breechplug very well, or not at all. If you are going to have rust that damages the gun anywhere, its going to start first at the face of the breechplug and in those few threads that may be exposed at the back of the bore.

That is why I use alcohol in final cleaning. The Alcohol gets in everywhere, and is a terrific solvent. If anything can clean out crud in those hard-to-reach corners, the alcohol will. Using alcohol will also insure that the groove in your gun is cleaned every time. Best wishes. :hatsoff:
 
I have a Pedersoli 69 cal musket also and the bore mics out at around .685-.687 so the proper ball dia for my barrel with a patch or paper cartridge is a Lyman .662 RB mould.
My Pedersoli 75 cal Brownbess takes a Lyman .715 RB mould to use a patch or paper cartridge properly.
I myself enjoy trying to hit man size targets at 100 yds plus with my smooth bores out in the desert. My average on hits is around 2 out of 3 at 100yd plus distances.
I now make my own cartridges and man can you burn up alot of black powder and lead balls quik using that method.
I also need to work on my slow ignition issues with my muskets and lighten my heavy factory trigger pulls. Maybe I might meet up with someone at the BenAvery Winter Nationals in Febuary that can help me with theses issues.
 
Manyklatch and I shoot military flint muskets on the smoothbore silly-wet range ( can't spell French words worth a dang! )at Friendship. We both get at least two of the 120 yard four foot tall bears. The last time Manyklatch shot it he hit three out of four bears! Unfortunately he hit the wrong bear and it cost him a medal in the event! ( heat waves on the last shot! )
You have excellent shooting form, if you could install one of Jim Chambers touch hole liners. you would not believe how your groups would tighten up! Of course when we shoot at Friendship and the rendezvous we are shooting patched round balls not undersized balls wrapped in paper cartridges. I like a patch and ball combination
that requires a starter to seat the ball. I am not talking about hammering the ball in, just enough pressure that you can't provide with your thumb. My cleaning procedure is very simple. I tap a toothpick into the touch hole. I then pour in my three part cleaning solution. I plug the muzzle with a finger and I swing the muzzle end toward the ground and back up again. I do this tow or three times and I pour the solution out on the ground. I then put the muzzle on the ground
resting on an old towel. I do this in the gun rack. I pull out the toothpick and this release the vaccume so the rest of the solution will run out on the towel. I then put a cleaning patch in the pan and close the frizzen. I run two wet patches down the bore ( the bore is usually clean
with the first patch ) and then a dry patch or two. I then squirt 100% Balistol down the bore I put Balistol on a tight patch and point the touch hole in a safe direction. When I run down the Balistol patch the excess Balistol will squirt out the touch hole. At this point your barrel and liner are 100% cleaned and ready for storage. I have used this system for over 10 years and I have had no ill results. The procedure mentioned takes less than five minutes per flintlock. Keep in mind I am only talking about flintlocks. If you are in a primitive camp this also works well with hot water out of the coffe pot! It takes a few more patches with hot water. Balistol is the key part of this system.
:thumbsup:
 
Bill, I use the much maligned Alcohol, Murphey's Oil Soap and Hydrogen peroxide. Equal parts of the ingredients ( 1/3rd each )Some of the folks will rant aganst using the peroxide because of the water content. Almost any cleaning solution will have bad results if you leave it in the barrel. As soon as I am through with the wet patches I start with the dry patches. I do not leave the solution in the barrel long enough to cause damage. With this system the solvent and wet patches are in the barrel less then 4 minutes.
I Then soak the bore with Balistol. I have been using this system for over 10 years and all of my bores are mirror bright.
I use a round toothpick and I break off the point on one end, I put the pointed end in the touch hole and I use a knapping hammer to drive it in the touchhole. This system was wrote up in MuzzleBlasts about 15 years ago, they called it the Three Patch cleaning system.

Disclaimer If you are shooting an old original
gun, do not use this system. The very old steel does not agree with one of the parts. If you are shooting a modern reproduction like most of us you will have no problem.

If you have shot 20 or 30 rounds it will take more than 3 patches!
:thumbsup:
 
Nice shooting Sebastian I would"nt want to be down range from you lol, you would be really bad news to someone with a rifled barrel. Does your miss"s know your using her food processor to make wadding I would"nt let her near a loaded firearm if she had seen that. LOL :thumbsup:
 

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