Some information for those interested in buying the 1859 Sharps (Be it from Chiappa or Pedersoli)

[LeadShark]

Please explain why you feel the brass cartridges are more damaging to the Pedersoli 1859 than paper cartridges? What's the logic or data that leads you to that conclusion?

Because you get a flame out of the brass tube's ignition hole concentrating directly onto your flash cone, which burns it out faster and on some models is a real piece of work to remove.

I'm the new owner via inheritance of a Farmingdale New Shiloh 1863 Sharps infantry rifle with a 3-digit SN that's been fired less than 10 times with paper cartriges. My Dad liked the fact that it was a Shiloh because we used to live near and do a lot of hiking at the Shiloh Battlefield in SW Tennessee. After firing it a few times he set it aside in the gun safe for 45 years because the hunting reg's prohibited breech loading BP for a couple decades and by then he was BP hunting with a scoped Hawken. I have no interest in brass tubes but I am curious as to any experience folks have had with simply loading the breech with the bullet and powder (no paper cartridge) or with the cartridges made from sandwich wrap or rolling papers rather than nitrated paper.

Works perfectly fine. I have never had any embers or paper residue.

 

[Erwan]

Because you get a flame out of the brass tube's ignition hole concentrating directly onto your flash cone, which burns it out faster and on some models is a real piece of work to remove.

Yep, that's right and on some Pedersoli model (like mine) it's no possible to change the cone : the cone is machined with the falling block ...
For the brass tube, one more problem : you can't put the volume of powder you want : here is a test with 70 grains of 3Fg and 500 grains bullet at 50 yards on a small target for 22LR. Can't do that with brass tubes : only ~50 grains by pressing well the powder in the tube with the bullet...

 

[Dude]

Ok, let's see if I got this right. If I use paper cartridges in the Pedersoli, it will flash past the breech block - eroding the metal and fouling the action. If a brass cartridge is used, it will blow out the flash cone (mine is like Erwan's - a machined part of the block). When that happens I'll have to drill and tap for a real nipple.

I machined a couple cartridges but haven't tried them yet. I'll have to fill one up and measure the number of grains it'll accept.

 

[Erwan]

I'll have to fill one up and measure the number of grains it'll accept.

Paper : 90 grains of 3Fg ...

Brass tube : 50 grains of 3Fg...

 

[Boston Bill]

That's seriously helpful info, and thanks for sharing it!

I've never owned a '59 Sharps, preferring instead the '74. I've never owned a Sharps in one of the "mainstream" calibers because making ammo for them seems to be such a big part of the overall experience. Also, the oddball chamberings can often be found cheaper than rifles in the more common and currently available calibers. It just seems odd to me that someone would buy a design like the '59 and then NOT want to make their own paper cartridges! I'm not trying to judge anybody that wants to fool with the brass tubes, just sharing my thoughts on it...

I have an 1863 and just lube and stuff a bullet into the chamber. Pour a little corn meal in for filler then some powder then fire away!

 

[Packrat]

I had a Pedersoli Infantry musket, regreat selling it, recently I acquired a Armi Sport in the 74 configuration, I used paper cartridges in the Pedersoli and will do the same in this one. My question, what is the purpose of the "Floating" brass cylinder in the chamber
Dixie has Ringtail molds for the Sharps, made by Pedersoli, also Moose Molds makes a Christmas Tree mold and a Sharps mold , does anyone Know the difference, Thanks Packrat

 

[wb78963]

My Pedersoli carbine with the Hahn conversion is good for 40+ rounds with a spritz of PAM canola oil at the 35 mark.
I quit at 40 because there was nothing left to prove and i ran out of loaded tubes..
Bunk

additionally the bore has been lapped using Brownell's JB compound which seems to have made cleaning easier. I believe that removed all the burrs from the rifling process. Accuracy testing is still a work in progress.

 

[LeadShark]

My question, what is the purpose of the "Floating" brass cylinder in the chamber.

It is supposed to aid the gas seal. The gasses push it against the breech plate while the breech plate gets pushed against the moving sleeve.

 

[4575wcf]

I would avoid the Pedersoli Sharps paper case sporting rifle in .45 caliber especially. The much higher pressure of the .45 gas cuts the block and the stainless steel floating chamber so badly the resulting crevasse fills with fouling and the block begins to stick solidly after a few shots. I returned my badly gas cut breech check to the manufacturer, received a new one for the .54 model that fit and performed even worse. This beautiful, extremely accurate sporting rifle is now a non-shooting safe queen pending a complete conversion to a proprietary centerfire or possibly Milbank primed cartridge. The original Sharps company tried and discarded the floating chamber, why Pedersoli ever used it is beyond me. The insert is too long to remove for cleaning in the .45 model requiring complete barrel removal to access it. Just a bad design all the way. A good friend had a Shiloh cavalry carbine in .54 that worked as well as a real one with nitrated paper cartridges. I absolutely drooled over the 1859 Berdan infantry rifle model with the double set trigger, but because of the negative experiences with the .45, I never ordered one.

 

[LeadShark]

I absolutely drooled over the 1859 Berdan infantry rifle model with the double set trigger, but because of the negative experiences with the .45, I never ordered one.

If you can ever find a Shiloh or a Garret/Palmetto Berdan Sharps, do not hesitate. It will be worth it.

 

[4575wcf]

Yeah LeadShark I get it. That is a RIFLE.

 

[4575wcf]

The Sharp's action would not be a terribly hard build, should I get my milling machine running and come on line. The 1852 Model is the nicest looking one by far, but having never handled one I don't know how those sealed, or if the slant breech system would be improved by incorporating Lawrence's sliding gas check. The Rifle Shoppe offers the receiver and block castings.

 

[Elkhorse]

I have had an IAB Sharps for a couple of years now, and it has proven it's self over and over again without any issues.
The barrel does have a .54 cal. stamping on it, but really does shoot a .562 ball much better.
At seventy five yards with the peep sights, I can keep all shots touching.....very impressive.
It is a a bit more tedious shooting than my 45-70 Sharps, but that is the fun in shooting a paper cartridge.
To keep it shooting well, I swab between shots, that also keeps the breech block from freezing up.
I'm sure the swabbing between shots also help in shooting the tight group.

I have an 1863 IAB .54 carbine .544 bore.
Please explain your process for shooting .562 round balls which are made for a .58.
I might like to try it but it seems a bigger diameter than suggested by mfg.
Thanks

 

[springfield art]

Just wanted to make this post for those interested in buying and shooting the 1859 Sharps from Chiappa or Pedersoli to prevent them from making a possible purchase they regret.

They have changed the breech block to be better suited for the brass loading tubes. Shooting paper cartridges with these breech blocks is now a pain. In the case of Pedersoli, there is nothing that can really be done. Chiappa didn't completely change the block, they did however change the gas plate. So if you can find a plate that was constructed in the original way, shooting paper cartridges will still be possible with the system doing what it is intended to do.

The Sharps always starts leaking at a certain time during shooting. Mine for example doesn't leak at first but starts to the more gunked up the plate gets. This is normal. The originals weren't completely gas tight either. It has never burned my arms.

The new breech block however, will make sure that your Sharps will ALWAYS leak. Where originally the gas would expand and push the plate forward, it will now push the plate back onto the breech block. The result: No gas seal can be achieved at any level. I also believe that it gunks up way worse and more goo and fouling will get into every part of your rifle.

Why did Pedersoli do this? Simple. Because a lot of Sharps-Shooters prefer brass tubes nowadays. I personally don't and I also believe the brass tubes will ruin your breech block over time. But there are people that do. Chiappa naturally decided to follow suit.

Will Pedersoli or Chiappa ever change this: No.

My advice if you want a percussion Sharps (that fires paper cartridges): Palmetto/Garret or Shiloh. Maybe the old Chiappa manufacture if you can find it. Even if it is more expensive, you will get a rifle that you are more satisfied with. I personally shoot a Palmetto. It didn't need any work done to have 100% ignition.

Hope this helps those that didn't know about it to not make a purchase they later regret.

While this won't affect me personally, you have done some guys a great service. BTW, the old Garrett arms are highly desirable. I have one of his Mississippi rifles, and it's nice! He had I think a 45-70 ctg. rifle in addition to the percussion. He's long gone, but was in Virginia and had guns made to his specs by the Italians. I'm sure some guys are more up on the history than I, but again, thanks for your truly informative write-up. Who knows, someday I may come across a carbine and will know what to look for, not that it's on my radar.

 

[LeadShark]

Many months ago I asked Chiappa if they would ever change the breech block back to the proper design. I finally got an answer.

They said they will never change it back.

 

[F.G. Ford]

I have an 1863 IAB .54 carbine .544 bore.
Please explain your process for shooting .562 round balls which are made for a .58.
I might like to try it but it seems a bigger diameter than suggested by mfg.
Thanks

Hi, I have tried .535 hollow base bullets with poor results, and .535 round ball with about the same results.
after slugging the bore and finding it to be .553" I tried my .562 round ball mold with nitrated paper towel cartridges with 90 grains of 2F with great results.
I shoot a pure lead round ball with 70/30 bees wax/olive oil lube with one hole groups at 75 yards, with no complications.
With a clean breach and bore, I just roll the well lubed round ball in the breach, then press the powder filled paper cartridge into the chamber, then close the breech. It closes tightly without any issues. But I do swab between shots.
I have tried rolled cardboard cartridges. They work ok but do hang up in the bore after shooting, and caution the danger of them hanging up in the bore between shots if you do not swab. VERY DANGEROUS!
Check your IAB........I doubt the bore is .544. My IAB is stamped .54 cal. on the barrel but the bore is .553"
I think the .535 bullets and balls just rattle down the bore without really engaging the rifling.
My IAB will not hit a two foot target with .535 bullets at 75 yards with any consistency.
I think I have a spare .562 round ball mold if you want one. ( I am not really sure )

 

[Elkhorse]

Hi, I have tried .535 hollow base bullets with poor results, and .535 round ball with about the same results.
after slugging the bore and finding it to be .553" I tried my .562 round ball mold with nitrated paper towel cartridges with 90 grains of 2F with great results.
I shoot a pure lead round ball with 70/30 bees wax/olive oil lube with one hole groups at 75 yards, with no complications.
With a clean breach and bore, I just roll the well lubed round ball in the breach, then press the powder filled paper cartridge into the chamber, then close the breech. It closes tightly without any issues. But I do swab between shots.
I have tried rolled cardboard cartridges. They work ok but do hang up in the bore after shooting, and caution the danger of them hanging up in the bore between shots if you do not swab. VERY DANGEROUS!
Check your IAB........I doubt the bore is .544. My IAB is stamped .54 cal. on the barrel but the bore is .553"
I think the .535 bullets and balls just rattle down the bore without really engaging the rifling.
My IAB will not hit a two foot target with .535 bullets at 75 yards with any consistency.
I think I have a spare .562 round ball mold if you want one. ( I am not really sure )

Thanks.
I have a .562 round ball mold.
My concern is building too much pressure behind the ball because it's .018 larger than recommended

 

[F.G. Ford]

Thanks.
I have a .562 round ball mold.
My concern is building too much pressure behind the ball because it's .018 larger than recommended

If I can suggest, please slug your bore and measure it.
Take a .535 ball put it in a vise, squeeze it to .550, put a little lube on it then press it down the barrel then measure it. See what the true size of the bore is?
For sure I would be concerned if your bore was .535 and then trying to shoot a .562 ball out of it.
I was surprised to see my barrel stamped .54 cal. then slugging to find .t .553".
But like I said the .535 balls were all over the place when trying to shoot it.
Perhaps the gun would shoot well with paper patched bullets????!!!

 

[Elkhorse]

If I can suggest, please slug your bore and measure it.
Take a .535 ball put it in a vise, squeeze it to .550, put a little lube on it then press it down the barrel then measure it. See what the true size of the bore is?
For sure I would be concerned if your bore was .535 and then trying to shoot a .562 ball out of it.
I was surprised to see my barrel stamped .54 cal. then slugging to find .t .553".
But like I said the .535 balls were all over the place when trying to shoot it.
Perhaps the gun would shoot well with paper patched bullets????!!!

I shoot the .544/475 gr. christmas tree bullet by DGW made into a paper cartridge or with loose powder.
This bullet goes into the breach cone and does not slide thru.
I shoot a .540/415gr. hollow base from a LEE mold which I cast. I make these as a paper cartridge and then they do not slide thru, but will slide thru w/o paper.
I had started a thread before on MLF asking about experiences w/a round ball ( to save lead) in Sharps without too much success.
I'll slug the barrel to see what I get.
I pretty much just plink and for me hitting a paper plate size target is all I need.
Thanks for your input

 

[4575wcf]

Thanks.
I have a .562 round ball mold.
My concern is building too much pressure behind the ball because it's .018 larger than recommended

I would not concern myself about any breech pressure issues with the larger ball. The round ball has the shortest bearing surface of any possible projectile. The cap and ball pistol when loaded with the correct pure lead ball swaged into the cylinder is shooting more of a lozenge than a ball without pressure problems--very accurately. The principle is the same for both applications.