Southern Mountain vs. Tennessee

[BruceB]

What's the difference between Southern Mountain Rifles and Tennessee Rifles? Looking at catalogs and internet websites, I don't see much of a difference between the two.

 

[rafterob]

Generic vs. specific. Southern Mountain, to me, conjurs up "poor boy" styles. Many Appalachian rifles were very basic with rustic hand wrought furniture.

 

[Mike Brooks]

What's the difference between Southern Mountain Rifles and Tennessee Rifles? Looking at catalogs and internet websites, I don't see much of a difference between the two.

Just different labels gun builders hang on their products for increased sales. There are as many "schools" in the iron mounted rifles as there are in Pennsylvania built guns.

 

[Zonie]

Mikes comment is probably true.

That said, if someone is thinking about buying a semi-finished stock in a "kit" they should look at the stocks dimensions if they are available.

For instance, Pecatonica River's catalog shows the following dimensions: (remember these stock blanks have extra wood on them)

Tennessee Mountain Rifle:
Overall length =59"
Pull length = 15 1/2"
Drop at heel = 3 1/2"
Barrel channel length = 42"
Barrel channel sizes = 13/16" & 7/8"
Ramrod hole size = 3/8"
Lock mortice area = 1 7/16" X 6"
Width at lock = 1 9/16"
Butt = 1 1/2 X 4 1/4"
-----------
Southern Mountain stock:
Overall length =59"
Pull length = 15"
Drop at heel = 4 1/4"
Barrel channel length = 42"
Barrel channel sizes = 13/16" & 7/8"
Ramrod hole size = 3/8"
Lock mortice area = 1 7/16" X 6 7/8"
Width at lock = 1 3/4"
Butt = 1 5/8 X 5 1/4"

As can be seen, there are physical differences.

 

[CrackStock]

Yes, but avoid the Siler lock that they try to send along with the kits.

CS

 

[Zonie]

I agree but I should point out to anyone new to the various guns and the locks that are available, a Siler lock is an excellent lock.

The reason for avoiding them with a Tennessee or Southern Mountain rifle is because the Siler lock is a Germanic shaped lock with a pointed tail at the rear.

The Tennessee and Southern Mountain style rifles typically use a lockplate that is rounded at the rear more like an English style lock or a TC or GPR.

That said, if a person doesn't really care if the gun actually looks like most original Tennessee or Southern Mountain style of rifles, a Siler will work just fine.

An example of this is the Pecatonica River Tennessee with a Siler Flintlock I converted to percussion lock.

 

[CrossXstix]

Being that the Siler is one of the better locks, can the pointed tail be filed and shaped to a more rounded look before inletting?

David

 

[Vaino]

My next LR will be some sort of Southern rifle and already have a Chambers late Ketland lock which is appropriate. The "tail" can easily be reshaped, but might just use it unaltered.....Fred

 

[Celt5494]

Sir, why would you want to file it down when you can get a period lock elsewhere? If you did file it down it would stand out as the siler has a very refined and slim lock plate profile. Many of the rounded or Durrs Egg plates are a bit more in gearth. They also have a small point to them in the rear. Take a look at what you are interested in and go from there rather than fitting a square peg into a round hole. I'm sure you will be well pleased without any regrets or consternation along the way.

 

[rich pierce]

Using a broad brush here, there are kits and precarves based on specific original guns and there are kits and precarves that are more generic, representing features often found on a originals from a region over a 20 year span. Generally when you read "Tennessee", "Early Virginia", "Transitional", "Southern Mountain", "Cumberland" or "Early Pennsylvania" etc you are looking at a generic kit or precarve. It's up to you to decide if you want something more specific. Sort of like re-creating a 1950's car that is not really a Ford or a Chevy or a Buick, but has some features found in general on 1950's cars. On the other hand if you find a kit or precarve with a fella's name on it (Marshall, Dickert, Leman, Hawken, etc) you can expect (or demand) that it represents something more closely based on specific originals.

If you want to get into specific original iron-mounted Southern rifles, look into Soddy Daisy, Gillespie, Bean, etc. Others are better versed than I am in that area.

 

[CrackStock]

Good point Zonie.

The Siler is a good lock - I have several of them. They are just not correct for the rifles styles being discussed.

As to reshaping the lock plate to use on the Southern guns, I believe this is exactly what is shown here:

Mystery lock

CS

 

Let's add a little clarification here about the locks. Most if not all Southern rifles all inclusive have English style locks, whether they are Virginia, Tennessee, Carolina. The Siler is a brand, not a style of lock, and is owned by Jim Chambers. There are two or three Siler's that are appropiate for these type of guns without modification, they are the Early, and Late Ketland, the queen anne also works for earlier guns. L&R, and Davis also have correct styles also, as well as others. Most Tennessee's had imported English hardware likes like the Ketland, Bailes, and Durrs Egg after 1800. Look at originals, and study them a bit, and it becomes pretty clear which tye lock was used. Hope that helps clarify a bit. Got to Track's online catalog, and the lock section for the different types.

Bill

 

[Zonie]

Being that the Siler is one of the better locks, can the pointed tail be filed and shaped to a more rounded look before inletting?

David

To answer the question, yes some rounding could be done to the lockplate but the radius probably couldn't exceed 1/4" without getting into the area where the sear spring exists.
This would not give the lockplate the large generous radius that was typical of the more "correct" locks.

More to the point here is if someone buys a pre-inlet kit, the pointed mortice for the Siler lock would already be cut into the wood.
If the mortice has been cut and the lockplate had the tail filed off it would leave a gaping hole at the rear of the lockplate.
This would happen unless the buyer asked for a pre-carved stock blank without the lock mortice.
Pecatonica River is happy to supply a pre-carved stock like that. In fact most of the stocks I've bought from PR were ordered without the lock mortice. I'm not sure what the other suppliers can or will do.

 

[Vaino]

The Siler locks were first manufactured by Bud Siler and the business was sold to Jim Chambers. The Siler flintlock is a modern Germanic style lock and when "Siler flintlock" is mentioned, it certainly is a certain style of lock. Chambers also manufactures other styles like the early and late Ketlands and round faced English style locks which have no connection w/ the Siler name.....Fred

 

[jamesthomas]

Now why did ya go and convert a perfectly good rock banger to a cap snapper? :hmm: .

 

[Zonie]

Because I built it from a Siler lock kit and messed up the frizzen and pan when I was drilling the hole for the screw.

The mostly completed lock sit in my junk box for a year before I decided to create a Percussion lock that was actually built out of a true Flintlock, just like they did back in the early 1800's.

The converted lock ended up with the holes for the frizzen and the frizzen spring being plugged with swaged in screws filed flush with the plate and the old pan being cut off and filed to support the nipple drum.

As I say, it is like thousands of locks that are on early Percussion guns.

 

[stone knife]

I agree but I should point out to anyone new to the various guns and the locks that are available, a Siler lock is an excellent lock.

The reason for avoiding them with a Tennessee or Southern Mountain rifle is because the Siler lock is a Germanic shaped lock with a pointed tail at the rear.

The Tennessee and Southern Mountain style rifles typically use a lockplate that is rounded at the rear more like an English style lock or a TC or GPR.

That said, if a person doesn't really care if the gun actually looks like most original Tennessee or Southern Mountain style of rifles, a Siler will work just fine.

An example of this is the Pecatonica River Tennessee with a Siler Flintlock I converted to percussion lock.

I have a TMV Tennessee on order it will come with a Siler lock, I don't reenact so I could care less if it's correct. All I need it to do is go off when it should.

 

[Zonie]

And I'm sure it will.

I feel safe in saying that 99+ percent of the people in this country including those who will see your rifle won't know the difference, nor will most of them care.

All they will see in their minds eye is a well made "old fashioned" gun. Many will even call it a "musket".

When they do that with me I usually ignore it, especially if they call it a 'musket' in front of their kids. No real reason for making them look foolish at times like that, if you know what I mean.

 

[smoothy]

There has been much debate in previous posts about the origins of the southern mountain/Tennessee rifle. I've seen references in books pointing out that they existed prior to the Revolution. It was also pointed out that there aren't much for specimen's that would provide proof of there existense that far back.
However, check out the picture of a proclaimed "southern mountain type rifle" in George Neumann's/Frank Kravis's book "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" on page 235, plate 8. This rifle has a lock with a pointed tail. Could be one of the 1 percenters with a pointed tail. Perhaps it is one of the few surviving examples of an earlier than accepted rifle of this type. There just isn't enough rifles of this type that would prove there existence and provide historians a basis for acceptance. I'm not going to debate an early existence, only providing a pointy tailed example. And yes, I do have a southern mountain style rifle I finished in '89 with a Bud Siler lock. If I were to build one of this type today I would go with the generally accepted round tail. But I'm ok for now being a rebel with a pointy tail.

 

[Mickc01]

Here's my "Southern Moutain" rifle, by Don Kammerer. You can also call it a poorboy rifle but NEVER a Tennesse rifle cause I'm from North Carolina. :blah: