Southern Mountain vs. Tennessee

[user 13289]

Where did the notion of rounded lockplate=tennessee get established? From some single Tennessee builder maybe, or some single reference book? (i don't know i don't have those yet). What i do have is conversation with two different men in their 70's who have made part of their life and livings over the last thirty or fifty years-shooting and collecting and making black-power weaponry. One recalls a local fellow, now passed, who had 100 Original Southern/TN rifles-he looked at 'em.

These guys have experience far beyond mine and they both tell me that it was done _both_ ways. I have seen several originals with pointy locks.

I can't imagine a TN builder turning down a shipment of english locks because they had pointy plates. I contend that they made do with what they could get. And i don't care for the round back lock plates.

i have other images, but no urls and don't care to take the time this morning to dig up the sources or go play on flikker...have a bbl to inlet.

I would not argue against the notion that "more" southern/tn rifles had round-back lock plates, but find the "only rounded plates were used" argument to be completely off kilter wrt the whole of the surviving specimens.

++ i put up a photo, maybe it has to be approved?

 

Wade first you need to post photo's thru a third party like photo bucket, there's a tutorial. Now to your question, as you already surmised most if not all Tennesses's and Southern guns used imported hardware lock. They were imported both ways, with and without tails, with and without rollers on the frizzen, some like today's L&R late Ketland had a flat on the end. I'm sure some smith's rounded or bobbed the lock depending on demand and their own likes. I would recommend the Southern Rifle Show in Norris Tennessee, the last week in March every year at the Museum of the Appalacia, it's put on by the KRA. Also I would suggest Jerry Nobles four volume set of "Notes on Southern Longrifles" You can get one at a time from Jerry directly. He's low tech, but he can be reached by phone to order 309-582-2852 Anyone serious about Southern guns, will be interested in these books. A quick scan through Vol. 2, the first one I grabbed to get Jerry's number, shows almost all rounded tails, but that's only one volume. I happen to like them both ways. Of the five originals I own, three are rounded, one square and one with a tit. of the three contemporary plus the .32 I'm working on it's half and half. You are aware that there are no known original guns with germanic locks, they're all English style, whether Tennessee, Carolina, Maryland, or Virginia.

Bill

 

[smoothy]

It may be more of an issue using Germanic locks on a TN Mtn rifle rather than pointed vs rounded plates. The rounded plates are more of a later design and I'm thinking that is why there are more surviving examples of this type. I am not an expert on this subject, but have seen other posts that frown on Siler locks for this application. I used a Siler on a TN Mtn rifle I finished in '89 only because I'm left handed and the Siler lock was popular back then and available for left hander. The round plated Cochrane lock was also available back then, along the Durs Egg. But I hadn't read as much about them.

 

[user 13289]

Thanks Bill, yes, I've heard of the show and might make it this coming year. Will acquire reference materials when funds permit. All going to gun parts and finishing materials right now.

I've seen plenty of pointies satisfy my own personal "needs". Just wondered where the notion that "all" of TN was this or that. Which anyone who has studied 'em knows--there is no such rule...more like preponderances and tendencies and certain builders who ...

 

[stone knife]

Here's my "Southern Moutain" rifle, by Don Kammerer. You can also call it a poorboy rifle but NEVER a Tennesse rifle cause I'm from North Carolina. :blah:

That's a sweet looking gun you have there :thumbsup:

 

[hardtimes]

Here's my "Southern Moutain" rifle, by Don Kammerer. You can also call it a poorboy rifle but NEVER a Tennesse rifle cause I'm from North Carolina. :blah:

Nice looking rifle! :thumbsup: I really like the poorboy style.

 

[smoothy]

Wasn't Tennessee a part of North Carolina at one time?

 

[hanshi]

Tennessee was part of Georgia at one time.

 

[Tony Logan]

yep that's what they taught us in TN history, once Western NC is now in East TN :idunno:

 

[Birddog6]

Yes, it can be done, as on this LH one I modified. Does not make it a true looking Tenn lock, but makes it look more authentic than the pointed tail Germanic Siler it originally was.

Left lock is a Chambers Late Ketland with the tail rounded off. Right one is a LH Chambers Gunmakers lock, modified to look more to a Tenn. style of lock.

If you can go to the CLA show in Lexington, KY in August, there you will find MANY southern styles of rifles. You will find them with pointed tails, rounded tails, blocked off tails, but I have yet to see a Original Tenn. rifle with a Germanic Siler type lock on it. Now I feel quite sure there is one out there someplace, but I know if they exist, they are few cause you just don't see them.

Keith Lisle

PS: As for the reason I used & modified that lock, it was because I have all confidence in Chambers locks & have use dozens of them. Also had poor quality & performance in a few others I have used that would make a LH Tenn rifle..

 

[smoothy]

I'm curious myself of the difference between the two. Suppliers of stocks tend to have the SM with more of a sloping comb vs straight. I'm also curious about the nationality of the SM and TN rifle gunsmiths. The lack of Germanic style locks leans away from that nationality. Where did they acquire there skills in the early part of their history? Some books have indicated that this style of gun was started in the 1770's, though there isn't much (any?) for surviving specimens.

 

[user 13289]

great questions. maybe someone will do us the favor and share what they know of these styles.

Now having about 1/2 my rifle done, I'm comfortable with never buying a pre-shaped stock. Hole-drilling is so much easier with squared surfaces. MY point is that I'll have full flexibility to screw up the profiles if I don't unnerstand more about them.

The profile I building to now was from a plywood silhouette hanging on a peg in the Master's shop.

That being said, I do intend my next one to be a TN, in 40-but with hook breech with the idea of a second bbl in 32.

Then I'm interested in a Southern Mtn or Full-stock Hawken.

lots to learn.

 

[Rifleman1776]

You are aware that there are no known original guns with germanic locks

That is a very broad statement. I can't prover/disprove the statement but it hardly seems likely there are no known survivors here, or in Europe of such rifles. If they don't/didn't exist we would not be having this discussion. Replicas cannot be made of something that did not exist. My knowledge of this subject much inferior to many here. But, it is commonly understood by many that the American longrifle is grandchild of the (German) Jaeger. Many builders in the east, notably Pennsylvania, were German immigrants or 1st generation descendants. Many rifles were built that were 'jaergish' and/or sported their heritage from that rifle. My Rev. period longrifle was built by a master builder who copied (replicated) as closely as humanly possible an original Rev. period rifle. The rifle shows Germanic/Jaegerish lines. And is quite beautiful, BTW. I'll simply show the lock and let others comment on right/wrong/whatever. It is a modified Siler with the pointy tail remaining.

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[hanshi]

I really like that attractive trigger, by the way.

 

[duca]

Lets not forget the saw cut Flint. ? .Lol

 

[hanshi]

Oh yes! And that. :redface:

 

[duca]

Sorry I just had to say it.

 

"That is a very broad statement."

I'll stand by that comment, for the simple reason that there is no example of such a gun, in all the research out there, from the likes of Kindig, Dr. Whisker, Shumway, and the combined research of the KRA and other scholars. Such a rifle would be like the missing link. If authenticated it would be a million dollar gun, and the subject of many scholarly papers, as well as many shows. As to your rifle aside from a nice finish to the wood, and a good job of rust blue, I have no idea what kind of Jaegerish it is. Is there a school, or builder it was patterned after. I've never seen a lock like that, or rounded lock panels of that type in the fifty or so research books I have.

Bill

 

[user 13289]

WRT the pointy lockplate: Two very long-time builders assured me that plenty of original TN's where indeed, not round.

Which suits me fine as the TN-style is partly defined by variations being standard. Tip said there were somethin-thousand builders of TN originals.

I'm using a John Bailes style with the flat-tipped point.

To me that's the tragedy of the kits. Replicas lose the diversity of the originals.

 

[rich pierce]

The style of lock usually reflects the time period when the gun was made. Often we see Siler locks which represent a 1775-ish Germanic design used on 1850's style "poor boys". This was first employed by kit builders in the 1970's because Silers had a great reputation and were readily available. Then after 10,000 "poor boys" were made that way, folks started thinking that it was "right". The argument over round-tailed versus pointy-tailed locks is simply one of timeframe. Round-tailed locks are later, in general, not often found before 1820.