Southern Mountain vs. Tennessee

[Rifleman1776]

Lets not forget the saw cut Flint. ? .Lol

That is from Gunter Stifter. I used his flints almost exclusively in that rifle from 1976 until I retired it a few years ago. They last and last and last and............. :grin:

 

[Rifleman1776]

Round-tailed locks are later, in general, not often found before 1820

The rifle is a replica of a Rev. period transitional longrifle. e.g. riflemans rifle

 

[smoothy]

OK, now we can get into a debate when the Tennessee/Southern Mountain came into being. Were there some before 1820? I wish I had proof that there were, maybe somebody else does.

 

[user 13289]

OK, now we can get into a debate when the Tennessee/Southern Mountain came into being. Were there some before 1820? I wish I had proof that there were, maybe somebody else does.

When did someone build a rifle _here_ that was also unlike the one he brought with him? Because I doubt that folks automagically built different rifles when they moved from one area to another.

This place was fillin' up with white folks by the 1770's. 50 years to change "school"?

Or did they _place_ pioneering metalworkers around the territories and colonies according to their tastes in weaponry?

 

[smoothy]

I've understood that the TN/SM rifle was a product of remote areas lacking in some materials such as brass. Not that brass was totally unavailable. The people in those remote areas were unaffected by fashions outside their area. The simplicity/utility of this type of rifle speaks to me. A tool. Shaped for usage, not fad. Necessary furniture, yet some lacking basic furniture to protect the wood from wear. Or using non-metal furniture to serve as the same. I'm still not sure when this type was first being developed.

 

[user 13289]

brass was available, as anything-for a price. why waste precious money on yaller metal? my point is that all of the guns they brought with them were not TN.

wonder the shift? or is it just the natural evolution of the shooting machine-superior to all before?

and thankfully remembered and replicated by us these days.

 

[smo]

It is my understanding that alot of the people who settled in N.C later drifted into Tn.as my family did way back when. I have always been led to belive these original settlers came from England.As well as alot of the original settlers in the Va. area as well. :idunno:

 

[smoothy]

Experts are waiting for authentic specimens of the early TN/SM's that many of us think once existed. Theories of existence doesn't cut it for them without actual proof. The populace of flint shooters believe that they existed after 1800 and had round tailed/English locks. I also have a hunch that they existed as early as the Revolutionary War and would have had pointed tails. Saying that they got "used up" due to hard usage also won't cut it with the experts.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

How is the Joseph Bogle rifle classified? I have looked at pictures of it and some describe it as a Virginia rifle, others say TN/SM. I’m just beginning my studies on longrifles and this rifle intrigues me. Also it has been dated to late 18th century by some.

Jos Bogle Rifle

 

[user 13289]

Mr. Anderson tells me of a man who owned 100 originals. He saw them. Probably handled all of them.

I forgot the rest of the story. But they've been lost IIRC.

 

[smoothy]

Nice specimen. I'm no expert, but the shape of the griprail and the wedges instead of pins don't seem too typical of TN/SM. Yet there are some features that seem to fit the "norm" of what we see built today as features on a TN/SM. No matter what it is categorized as it sure is a beaute.

Sure would be nice to see more documented information on these types of rifles. It seems that the TN/SM rifle is the last frontier to be fully researched and good evidence booked by several authors for us to enjoy reading.

 

[user 13289]

yes, my lockplate matches the Bogle rifle. but the pan is a bit different. I saw an original with my pan shape, but different plate last night in the ALR "museum"

now i have to dig back down in that pile of info...will save (but not republish) that image when i see it again.

Tip sold me the lock, he has the parts made and puts 'em together, but is real circumspect when i ask him what to call it or who or what it copies...now I see that it copies about three different locks--found on original TN/SM rifles.

All builders who have seen the lock say--yeah that's correct. And then you get this "round back" school out here on the interweb. If you consider TN from mtns to river-there's just no way the round back "rule" applies.

And there are different pointy points. I agree that the "germanic" for lack of a better term pointy plate is extremely rare. The "english" for lack of a better term point, even as a green fresh newbie-I have seen many of those on originals.

I'm trying to find somewhere to discuss the matter-like the roundtable that the interweb tends to be.

 

Wade, it's not the plates being rounded or pointy that makes it English or German, it' the pan , and frizzen shape. Round, or pointy also doesn't determine early 1795, or late 1840's. The Bogle could by definition be a transitional piece, it would be better called a migratory piece, by a farmer, weaver, and part-time gunsmith, who grew up in Lancaster Pa., and by way of the War spent time in Virginia, and after the war, decided to move to Tennessee. From what I read this took a couple of years, and the reasons for the move are not really known, but two thoughts, ar political unrest in the form of the Whiskey Rebellion, and second land grants to veterans of the war. Regardless it's interesting to study, collect info, and then build a gun in that style. The Bogle is cool, in the mix of brass, and iron, it's Lancasterish profile, and trigger guard, yet it's considered a Southern rifle, rather that a weird Lancaster. As to your lock not being quite right, a lot of times that's why files and TIG welders are made if you want to be spot on in a build.

Bill

 

[user 13289]

Hey Bill, thanks for some discussion.

My lock is perfectly right atwo(according to wade's opinion). It copies many of the the originals from the region. Two old-time TN experts (Tippy Curtis and John Anderson) agree.

In my very short and $-limited study, I've seen original TN and SM rifles with the English point. Do you see the difference in the points? The English is a bit concave. And then there are those blunted plates.

AND maybe also I resist the round-back lockplates because the look so -cap lockish-. Of course that's just a personal thing.

I dug up a Bean pistol the other day with an English pointed plate--to put a "TN" builder to an example others might dig up. Innernet diggins (wrt longrifles)is a lot of hardpan yo.

I see the pan difference fer sure.

I forget who said it, but he said it well-that wrt TN/SM there aren't any absolute rules. As because as soon as you state one, someone will reach back in the closet and pull one out that does not comply.

I found a post on some forum where a guy talks about the general architecture of this genre, but there's little discussion. Would it be impossible to get a few folks to take some shots of the their "unpublished" Southern guns?



Cheers

 

[user 13289]

per wedgies:

John Anderson builds hooked breach/wedge guns on the TN style. We haven't discussed that aspect yet. I'm considering this for next build-to make a switch-bbl (40/32).

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

May I add an additional curiosity I see, from the limited flintlocks I have seen, I don’t see a lot of the original rifles having the long lollipop tang that is so prevalent in current day reproductions. Is this correct or haven’t I seen enough rifles yet?

 

[user 13289]

wrt lollipops

I've seen enough with and without to go either way, depending on personal preference. What i see is a fairly consistent shape in replicas and great variations in originals.

of course i like 'em, and mine will be a not-so-great variation.

 

[smoothy]

There is a small section on mountain rifles in George Shumway's book on North Carolina rifles (copywrighted 1968/1988). There are only 4 specimens pictured. The first three are by 3 different Gillespies and all 3 have lollipops. I believe there is also a Bean rifle pictured in Foxfire 5 that has a lollipop. Back in the late '80s I fashioned my SM rifle after Hershel House's rifle he built as pictured in Foxfire 5. I stayed with the long tang, but no lollipop as he did on that particular rifle. This was simply because this was my first build and I didn't want something extra to inlet. I did use 2 tang screws that screwed into the trigger plate, ahead and behind the trigger I cut/filed by hand. A simple single trigger with no curve as house had made.
Also, Shumway hypothesized in his book that the SM design had its roots in Virginia and worked its way to the mountains.
Is there not a new book out yet on TN/SM rifles with many specimens pictured? I've been waiting for one to come out myself. Seems like every year there is more interest on this style.

 

[user 13289]

I've seen more originals online and in person than i have books. Too much emphasis is placed on the very few specimens represented in the books methinks. Too few owners of originals share them online. They don't have to be pretty or famous to be interesting. I don't see the point in copying the works of seven or five makers when there where actually hundreds or thousands (according to Tip).

 

[hanshi]

I agree. But the "in" thing seems to be accepting only a hand full and dismissing all the rest. Go figure. :idunno: