Spanish 1757 Replica Musket

[FlinterNick]

WOW!! This turned out to be an interesting Thread. Thank you Hermanos - and Others here for helping to unravel the mysteries of these replica muskets. And the other documentation is most useful. There still seems to be a bit of a mystery of the exact years these replica muskets were made, beginning to end. But we might eventually find out.

Interesting that the Spanish started using barrel bands (in place of pin fastening) early on. Even on their sporting guns. If my memory serves, in the Lavin book, it shows and reads that only the earliest guns had pin fastened barrels.

Also, according to TRS Catalog, the Spanish military early on started with the miquelet lock. Then changed over to the French style flintlock about mid-18th Century. Then, just after about 1790 changed back to the miquelet, which they thought stronger.

As a side interest, here is an original Spanish Model 1752 military pistol lock. You can see some similarities to the larger musket lock.

RickView attachment 75728View attachment 75729View attachment 75730

The Miqulets were strong locks, and easier to service. Since the springs were on the outside of the plate, the spring could be made larger and heavier, so having it fit snug into a lock mortise wasn’t a concern, Authentically it wasnt attractive.

The gunstocks also allowed for more wood to be retained, therefore a sturdier stock.

The Spanish would eventually go back to the flintlock system in 1800, and pretty much copied the Charleville Again But this time with more Spanish style.

 

[toot]

The Cow's Foot Butt is the translation of the French term "pied de vache" used to describe the gracefully curving butt profile of the French Muskets, mainly the 1766 Charleville. That design characteristic was carried over to the Roman Nose design of some Pennsylvania rifles.

A search of the net turned several references to the term. A decent description is found here:
Kentucky Fowler - An American Restock of French Parts (collegehillarsenal.com)

thank you so much for the reply.

 

[FlinterNick]

thank you so much for the reply.

The Cows Foot design of the Charleville Muskets from 1717-1754 had a distinct flaw in that it was too weak for military use. The french guns were known for breaking in the field at the wrist. For military use, the Cows Foot was a poor design choice.

I don’t recall where I read this, but many of the North American M1728’s that were damaged in the field were restocked by the French admiralty governing arms at Fort Louisborg, they restocked the guns with trade gun stocks many of which were straighter in profile and design, not cows foot but more like a Brown Bess.

The earliest 1763 pattern was developed by arms minister Comte Stansville Wanted a more robust design without sacrificing the gracefulness of the french musket designs. The result was the development of the more customary fowlder/trade gun like butt stock. The initial design had a very high comb and deep flutes making the gun difficult to sight down the barrel, the reason for this was the desired drop in the 1763 was to be maintained almost as low as its predecessor the 1754, so they essentially took the Cows Foot design of the 1754 and pushed it up with a straighter comb And elongated the distance between heel and toe. Not many original 1763’s are around without a modified buttstock, Williamsburg has one of them. Pedersoli attempted to replicate this design on their 1763 but added 1/4 more a drop to compensate for the high comb. These high comb butt stocks were very much influenced by the Dutch German Muskets being built during the time.

The fluted designs of the 1763-1774 Charlevilles were eventually replaced by the non-fluted military butt stocks with a cheek recess, this required less craftsmanship and cut back the time it took to shape the stocks.

 

[Hermanoshawken]

Hermano,
Are you aware of any period art showing the M1757? Are you aware of any period M1757 muskets on display in Spanish museums? Thanks

Many weapons made in Eibar and other parts of Spain are exhibited in the gunsmith museum in the city of Eibar. In that museum a few years ago I saw an original model 1757 musket exhibited. Greetings.

 

[toot]

the SPANISH were making guns before we were ever thought of as a country!

 

[Manchac]

Hermano, since you were so helpful regarding the barrel markings, do you have any insight into the bayonet markings in the attached photo? I think this is from late 18th or early 19th century. Thanks.

 

[Hermanoshawken]

Hello. I could not tell. I have no knowledge of bayonets, but it may be a reproduction of the original vintage marks. That is if the bayonet is a modern replica. In fact, next to the town of Eibar is the town of Ermua, famous in the North of Spain for its manufacture of knives.
The Ermua company "Aitor" made very good Bowie type hunting knives, in the sixties and eighties.
Greetings.

 

[Manchac]

I communicated with Ardesa. They had no specific records, but thought that the M1757 replica musket was “more than 35/40 years old”.

 

[rickystl]

Thanks again for all this great info. Much appreciated.

Rick

 

[Manchac]

As an update there were some issues with the interaction between the sear and trigger plate, but drilling a slightly offset trigger pivot hole fixed it nicely.
An upon further inspection the breech plug is chambered, but not a patent chamber, just a smaller cylindrical chamber about 0.32" in diameter and 0.45" deep. If they had drilled the vent hole straight in it would have entered nicely into this smaller chamber. Not sure why they drilled the vent hole at a fairly steep angle to enter into the main bore instead, but it seems to fire fine...just a bit more work to clean the smaller chamber since no gases pass through it.

 

[Manchac]

While cleaning my M1757 replica recently I noticed the number "65" written or carved into the wood behind the lock just below the end of the barrel. It is hard to see unless the angle of the light is just right so I had not noticed it before. Does anyone know what this denotes or have a similar number on their replica?

 

[Hermanoshawken]

Hi Hermano

Thanks for shedding more light on the manufacturing of these guns. The dates of manufacture for these Spanish replicas is still somewhat clouded in mystery. I was told that Navy Arms received a small quantity of the original Spanish made guns for resale. Maybe Dixie never actually sold the Spanish made guns. Don't know. I believe mine is possibly one of the original Mendi made guns. When I originally posted my gun on the Forum here (6-years ago !!) this is what you mentioned:
"It is a replica of the Spanish musket Model 1757, manufactured in Eibar in 1983. The gauge is the original, (0.716), equivalent to 12 bore. Greater than the French muskets of the time (0.69), and lower that the British Brown Bess (0.75). The weapon was manufactured by MENDI and is of good quality. It is a highly sought in Spain for reenactment "Independence War" (1808-1812) against Napoleón Bonaparte."
The bore of my gun measures exactly 0.716 also. The fit and finish on mine are excellent.

Thanks again for the additional information.

RickView attachment 75452View attachment 75453

Hello mate. If you look at the photo you put, there is a number, which is the number of the weapon, 02006, but just to its left there is another mark, C*2. That mark corresponds to the year 1983, which is when that musket was tested. Then it was either manufactured in 1983 or at the end of 1982. Its internal diameter is 18.2 mm, that is, 0.716". It is equivalent to a slightly small 12 bore. Greetings from Spain.

 

[rickystl]

Thanks so much for the additional information. Much appreciated. And Greetings from Missouri in the U.S.

Rick

 

[Manchac]

Thanks so much for the additional information. Much appreciated. And Greetings from Missouri in the U.S.

Rick

Thanks Hermano and Rick. Any idea what the “65” carved inside the lock cavity in the stick means? Rick, does your replica have anything carved here? Thanks!

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Thanks Hermano and Rick. Any idea what the “65” carved inside the lock cavity in the stick means? Rick, does your replica have anything carved here?

Whilst I'm neither Hermano or Rick and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night ... I would say that '65' is an assembly number, so parts can be correctly reassembled after finishing of the stock or metal pieces.

For example, I just stripped apart an early Turner Kirland 1960s 40-cal 'squirrel flint longrifle', of Belgian-proofed barrel and a lock marked Italy, and various 'fitted or inletted' parts (barrel, lock, buttplate, etc.) all had the number '26' on them, even the ramrod pipes!

 

[Darto]

M1752 Musket - Wikipedia

"Spain also provided around 10, up to 12,000 muskets to the American rebels during the Revolutionary War" - Wikipedia article M1752 Musket. The article includes the 1757 changes to the M1752.

 

[TFoley]

Thank you for posting a link to the proof testing marks.

It does bring up a question for you. Is proof testing required for all barrels made in Spain?
I ask because I have a CVA 12 guage double barrel shotgun and your list caused me to check out my shotgun to see when it was made.

There are no proof marks on either barrel. This includes the bottom of the barrels.
The rib that separates the barrels is marked on its upper surface:

Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc.
Black Powder Only 12 guage
SHOTGUN

To the right of this, also on the rib is marked,
85 0611XX

I believe the second number starting with 0611 is the serial number.

There are no other markings. No Kp700/cm², no C12 or any similar number which leads me back to my original question. Is proog testing required for all barrels made in Spain? and if so, why are their no other markings beyond the ones I mentioned above?

Spain is one of the signature nations to the CIP and, as such, is required to proof ALL complete firearms made there and to mark them accordingly with stamps and cyphers indicating the date of proof.

However KITS provided to US sellers were NOT proofed, as the kit was usually sold with the barrel and breech plug separate, to be fitted by the kit builder. As such, the originator of the components has no responsibility for ensuring the safe assembly and subsequent use of the arm. You will appreciate that in order to be proofed, the breech plug must already be assembled to the barrel.

So I'm betting that your shotgun was a CVA kit.

 

[rickystl]

Thanks Hermano and Rick. Any idea what the “65” carved inside the lock cavity in the stick means? Rick, does your replica have anything carved here? Thanks!

I've never had the lock off the gun. But I'll check and see. Flint is probably correct in that it is an assembly number.

Rick

 

[Hermanoshawken]

M1752 Musket - Wikipedia

"Spain also provided around 10, up to 12,000 muskets to the American rebels during the Revolutionary War" - Wikipedia article M1752 Musket. The article includes the 1757 changes to the M1752.

Hello. On this subject there are already good books written about the contribution of Spain, and its King Carlos III, to the Independence of the USA. Also about the importance of Bernardo de Gálvez. Today we know that Spain sent: "Through the Bilbao company of José Gardoqui e Hijos, 215 bronze cannons were sent with their gun carriages or mounts, 27 mortars, 12.868 grenades (cannonballs), 30.000 muskets with their bayonets, 512.314 musket balls , 300.000 pounds of gunpowder, 30.000 uniforms, some 4.000 tents, and also plenty of lead to make bullets." There are several books on the subject in Spain and I am now writing one on the weapons of the Far West. Greetings to all.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Today we know that Spain sent: " ... 300.000 pounds of gunpowder ... "

Oh my, now THAT would be a big KaBOOM!

Thanks Hermano, not ony for the info, but for your Country's suport of our Independence!