OK, I have a DGW precarve with the barrel already inlet. I am attempting a North Carolina southern flint. I inlet the tang into the wrist area already. My problem is the sideplate side of the stock where the barrel channel meets the breech area is a perfect "L" shape. I read in Peter A. book that the forestock upper edge should curve into the breech vertical edge of the stock in a small curve. It should end by the top of the side flat which means it should complete the curve in 1/2 the width of a flat or about 1/4 of an inch. This means I will have to move my barrel back which I don't want to do for several reasons. I don't want to move too much farther back into the wrist, I'm already where I need to be I believe. This will also move my lock back which will move my triggers back which will shorten my trigger pull. I think the longest trigger pull I can get right now is about 13 1/2". I can't make the trigger pull any longer because the stock blank is just too short. I could add a piece of wood to the area and then curve it "forward" but that would be a patch, will it be noticable since I would only add the curve part? I could move everything back 1/8" and make a very tight curve, I could live with giving up 1/8" but will the tight curve look right? I could move it back 1/4" and make the curve look right? This might make it look "short wristed"? I would also lose some Trigger pull. I could just leave it with the square intersection, did any originals do that? This is my first "kit" build, boy I already see what everyone says about the precarves fitting right. The more I study this I can't believe how much a 1/4" affects EVERYTHING. I have a ramrod question too but I'll save it for another post. Thanks, Kurt
stock breech area fit problem
- Thread starter khwils
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I don't understand why you cannot create that curve right where everything is right now. Why would you have to move anything at all? The only image I have right now is not a closeup but look at this and see how the stock is shaped so that the sideplate molding curves to meet the top of the diagonal flat.
You'd do well to get an original or really good re-created longrifle to study for architecture. Some of these things are not easy to see at all in pictures. I don't know if you realize how much the stock slopes from beside the tang down to the lock and sideplate panels, but it is considerable.
You'd do well to get an original or really good re-created longrifle to study for architecture. Some of these things are not easy to see at all in pictures. I don't know if you realize how much the stock slopes from beside the tang down to the lock and sideplate panels, but it is considerable.
If I'm understanding what I am reading, the area where the top of the wood along the barrel channel runs straight back until it gets to the vertical breech face which the barrel rests against, and there is no radius at all at this point???
And, in order to have any wood to use to make a radius at this point, you would have to move the barrel back towards the butt 1/8 to even get room for a 1/8 inch radius??
I'm also assuming you fully cleaned out this area so the barrel can fully rest against the vertical face.
When I've done this, it has always placed the back of the barrel far enough back to leave a generous amount of wood at this point, but then again, I haven't bought a stock from Dixie. (I usually use Pecatonica River).
As your talking about the pull, I guess the lock and trigger and butt plate cuts have all been made. That in itself shouldn't keep you from moving the barrel towards the rear unless the vent hole (Flintlock) or Drum (Caplock) has been drilled in the barrel.
I hate to tell you, but if the above is true, IMO, you got a defective stock.
My first reaction would be to call Dixie and ask them what the H is going on.
I just looked at their 2003 catalog and all of the pictures of their stock blanks show a nice generous radius in this area on the lockplate side of the stock.
Assuming it was mine, and for some strange reason I didn't want to return it, I guess I would just have to live with it and tell those who asked "Yup. That is where the stupid apprentice got to dippin into the hard cider and took off too much wood. The Gunsmith fired the kid and gave me $1.50 off of the price of the gun if I'd take it like it is."
I don't think I would even try to glue a filler block onto it. If it's Curly Maple, it would be impossible to march the curl, and even if you could, most likely the glue line would show if you stained it.
It wouldn't look real bad in the direction of the grain, but the vertical joint would probably show unless you stained it almost black in that area.
Is it possible for you to get some Digital photos of your gun and post them here? Most of what I've said above is based on my speculating.
And, in order to have any wood to use to make a radius at this point, you would have to move the barrel back towards the butt 1/8 to even get room for a 1/8 inch radius??
I'm also assuming you fully cleaned out this area so the barrel can fully rest against the vertical face.
When I've done this, it has always placed the back of the barrel far enough back to leave a generous amount of wood at this point, but then again, I haven't bought a stock from Dixie. (I usually use Pecatonica River).
As your talking about the pull, I guess the lock and trigger and butt plate cuts have all been made. That in itself shouldn't keep you from moving the barrel towards the rear unless the vent hole (Flintlock) or Drum (Caplock) has been drilled in the barrel.
I hate to tell you, but if the above is true, IMO, you got a defective stock.
My first reaction would be to call Dixie and ask them what the H is going on.
I just looked at their 2003 catalog and all of the pictures of their stock blanks show a nice generous radius in this area on the lockplate side of the stock.
Assuming it was mine, and for some strange reason I didn't want to return it, I guess I would just have to live with it and tell those who asked "Yup. That is where the stupid apprentice got to dippin into the hard cider and took off too much wood. The Gunsmith fired the kid and gave me $1.50 off of the price of the gun if I'd take it like it is."
I don't think I would even try to glue a filler block onto it. If it's Curly Maple, it would be impossible to march the curl, and even if you could, most likely the glue line would show if you stained it.
It wouldn't look real bad in the direction of the grain, but the vertical joint would probably show unless you stained it almost black in that area.
Is it possible for you to get some Digital photos of your gun and post them here? Most of what I've said above is based on my speculating.
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can ya post a picture , so we can get abetter idea of your problem
Kurt,
Maybe pictures of some originals may help.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v186/c_laubach/Tang%20areas%20ORIGINALS/
Maybe pictures of some originals may help.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v186/c_laubach/Tang%20areas%20ORIGINALS/
OK, I'll try to answer all of this in order.
Rich, I'll try to make it clearer using the photo's C.J submitted. Look at the #4 berks sideplate. The area I am talking about is just in front of the back lockbolt where the top of the wood along the barrel channel meets the vertical breech area. It is an exact "L" or 90 degree cut. I cannot make the curve because there isn't any wood there.
Zonie, you've got it, that's the spot I'm talking about! Yes, I'll have to move it back1/8 for even a 1/8" radius. Trigger pull, I haven't done the lock, trigger or buttplate yet, I just don't have a long enough stock. I can't move the buttplate back any further into "air". I agree this isn't the best stock to work with. A little background, I went to Dixie and picked this stock out myself - in 1981, I was at the wise age of 21 and knew nothing about building a kit gun except that I wanted one! I found the receipt with the gun parts - a grand total of $263 for the entire kit. I just recently pulled this kit out of the basement and decided I now have most of the knowledge to complete this gun. Besides, dad asks me about every other year how my gun is coming along - won't he be surprised! Anyway, I can't blame Dixie at all. In fact since I got to pick it out myself I talked them into a better grade of wood for free. It is actually a nice curly piece, marked on the bottom is $50.00. It is ink stamped on the bottom of the barrel channel "Made in Belgium"! I don't have a digital camera but I'll try to get something this weekend.
CJ, That picture #4 of the berks rifle looks doable on this stock. That rifle has a very abrupt turn going straight up. I have ordered a book on southern rifles from Jerry Noble, hopefully it will get here soon.
Thanks all, Kurt
Rich, I'll try to make it clearer using the photo's C.J submitted. Look at the #4 berks sideplate. The area I am talking about is just in front of the back lockbolt where the top of the wood along the barrel channel meets the vertical breech area. It is an exact "L" or 90 degree cut. I cannot make the curve because there isn't any wood there.
Zonie, you've got it, that's the spot I'm talking about! Yes, I'll have to move it back1/8 for even a 1/8" radius. Trigger pull, I haven't done the lock, trigger or buttplate yet, I just don't have a long enough stock. I can't move the buttplate back any further into "air". I agree this isn't the best stock to work with. A little background, I went to Dixie and picked this stock out myself - in 1981, I was at the wise age of 21 and knew nothing about building a kit gun except that I wanted one! I found the receipt with the gun parts - a grand total of $263 for the entire kit. I just recently pulled this kit out of the basement and decided I now have most of the knowledge to complete this gun. Besides, dad asks me about every other year how my gun is coming along - won't he be surprised! Anyway, I can't blame Dixie at all. In fact since I got to pick it out myself I talked them into a better grade of wood for free. It is actually a nice curly piece, marked on the bottom is $50.00. It is ink stamped on the bottom of the barrel channel "Made in Belgium"! I don't have a digital camera but I'll try to get something this weekend.
CJ, That picture #4 of the berks rifle looks doable on this stock. That rifle has a very abrupt turn going straight up. I have ordered a book on southern rifles from Jerry Noble, hopefully it will get here soon.
Thanks all, Kurt
Kurt- clear as can be. You might get away with even 3/8" setback of the barrel. For me, length of pull is sometimes a touch over-rated as a critical determinant of "fit", as long as the stock is not too long. I can get my face down on most stocks all right. It's what i see when I get it down there that matters to me. My first longrifle, I went overboard on length of pull and it's troublesome when I am wearing heavy winter clothes.
Mr. Laubach- thanks for sharing the great pictures! Very valuable.
Mr. Laubach- thanks for sharing the great pictures! Very valuable.
Although most of the back ends of most original barrels was only about 1/2 or so behind the vent, in those days, the breech plug threads were only about 3/8 deep.
Modern barrels that I've seen have at least 1/2 inch of threads, and most are closer to 5/8 deep.
To the best of my knowledge, I don't know of a reason (except historical accuracy) that the drum/vent could not be 7/8 of an inch or even more ahead of the back of the barrel except it would limit the low powder load you could shoot.
After all, you don't want the ball to be further down the barrel (when it is on the powder) than the touch hole/drum. :shocking:
Now that I've said all of this, it boils down to this:
If the lock/trigger/buttplate are not installed, you could move the barrel aft 1/4 inch which would give you a 1/4 inch radius at your "L" corner.
Figure that you want the vent/drum about 7/8 ahead of the back of the barrel.
Using this as a starting point, determine the locks location, then the triggers location and finally the length of pull you have left. Remember, the buttplate thickness will probably add 1/4 to this length.
Try laying out the parts with this thought in mind and see what you will end up with.
I think when all is said and done, it will work out fine.
I don't recall the barrel length your working with, but if it is long, or shorter and heavy, remember, the shorter length of pull will make the gun feel lighter and easier to hold in a offhand position because it gets the weight back towards your body. :thumbsup:
Modern barrels that I've seen have at least 1/2 inch of threads, and most are closer to 5/8 deep.
To the best of my knowledge, I don't know of a reason (except historical accuracy) that the drum/vent could not be 7/8 of an inch or even more ahead of the back of the barrel except it would limit the low powder load you could shoot.
After all, you don't want the ball to be further down the barrel (when it is on the powder) than the touch hole/drum. :shocking:
Now that I've said all of this, it boils down to this:
If the lock/trigger/buttplate are not installed, you could move the barrel aft 1/4 inch which would give you a 1/4 inch radius at your "L" corner.
Figure that you want the vent/drum about 7/8 ahead of the back of the barrel.
Using this as a starting point, determine the locks location, then the triggers location and finally the length of pull you have left. Remember, the buttplate thickness will probably add 1/4 to this length.
Try laying out the parts with this thought in mind and see what you will end up with.
I think when all is said and done, it will work out fine.
I don't recall the barrel length your working with, but if it is long, or shorter and heavy, remember, the shorter length of pull will make the gun feel lighter and easier to hold in a offhand position because it gets the weight back towards your body. :thumbsup:
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