Stock Care

[Artificer]

Ah, sorry I missed a point you made last night about not mixing in turpentine while heating a finish compound. OK, just went back and re-read what I wrote on mixing the beeswax/linseed oil/turpentine mixture and I see what you meant.

Thank you for pointing it out as in my brevity, I left the wrong impression that the turpentine was mixed in while the compound was heated. What I meant to say was the beeswax was heated in a double boiler (or microwave nowadays) until it became/becomes a liquid. THEN it is taken out of the double boiler or microwave and the Linseed Oil and turpentine are mixed in thoroughly with no heat source around it.

Glad you caught that! :hatsoff:

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Batguano]wood expands in the summer, so inlays will be looser then than they are in the winter.[/b] A seasonal rule of thumb is about 1/4" of movement for every 12" of lateral grained wood. Tangentially (through the grain like in quarter-sawn lumber) it's about 1/2 that. Longitudinal (lengthwise) movement is negligible, so the idea of slotting barrel lugs to allow for seasonal wood movement is silly. Slotting lugs to allow for barrel movement on recoil does make sense.

I have to admit you lost me on the emboldened area, though I agree with the rest. Don't you mean as the wood expands in summer that inlays will be tighter in the cross grain or lateral movement as you described it?

Gus

 

[Col. Batguano]

Nope. Your tang will be a sloppier fit in the summer than it is in the winter. Let's assume a 1/2" wide tang. 1/4" of seasonal movement per 12" translates to .0104" across a 1/2" width of wood. different wood species have different expansion characteristics, but it's pretty similar for maple, walnut, cherry, ash, birch, and red oak. Some exotic species like Lignum Vitae and Teak are much more stable, as they have silicates and oil in the wood, (thus not as suceptible to seasonal transpiration) and must be de-greased before they can be glued.

Have you ever glued a board across a long run of end grain, hoping to conceal it? I did once. The table busted apart the first year I had it. So since then on long joinery I've used slots and tabs on things like table tops to allow for differential wood movement.

 

[Vaino]

Slotting bbl lugs is necessary due to expansion and contraction of wood. On one stock, after I drilled the bbl lug pins, I didn't elongate the pin holes and a month later pulled the pins and noticed that they pulled out hard. Tried to re-install the pins and they wouldn't go in. No problem after slotting. Somehow theoretically, slotting might not seem necessary, but actually it is. If you're convinced that slotting isn't necessary because of changes in the wood, don't do it and hopefully your MLers will still be accurate.

My bbls don't move back because of recoil....why?...because they're properly inletted against end grain wood as were many originals which didn't move either over many years.

A lot of misinformation out there......Fred

 

[necchi]

I assume your guns are tight or at least tighter in the summer?

Oh yeah! If I give'm the Liquid Gold treatment during summer a barrel or lock can be hard to install.
My point is/was that it doesn't have to be an extreme environment of heavy rain or dry desert conditions for wood stocks to benefit from proper care sans adding another coat of BLO periodically throughout the guns lifetime.
Many of us have seen 20-30yr old factory guns with wood in bad shape because of neglect,, putting another coat of finish on doesn't always help a distressed wood stock where as using a good wood furniture preservative/treatment on a regular basis can and does prevent damage that can happen from doing nothing.

I don't care what kind of finish is put on a stock, the topic is about "Stock Care" not applying the first finish or refinishing. Treating a wood stock like a fine piece of wood furniture IMHO is wise and part of the wood stock deal.

Wood stocks need ongoing care.

 

[Artificer]

Nope. Your tang will be a sloppier fit in the summer than it is in the winter. Let's assume a 1/2" wide tang. 1/4" of seasonal movement per 12" translates to .0104" across a 1/2" width of wood. different wood species have different expansion characteristics, but it's pretty similar for maple, walnut, cherry, ash, birch, and red oak. Some exotic species like Lignum Vitae and Teak are much more stable, as they have silicates and oil in the wood, (thus not as suceptible to seasonal transpiration) and must be de-greased before they can be glued.

Have you ever glued a board across a long run of end grain, hoping to conceal it? I did once. The table busted apart the first year I had it. So since then on long joinery I've used slots and tabs on things like table tops to allow for differential wood movement.

In the example above, it seems to me you are suggesting the wood only expands away from the sides of the tang. However, the wood next to the sides of the tang will also expand towards the sides of the tang as wood expands.

In my experience with thousands of gun stocks bedded in winter, they expand cross grain in summer both sideways towards the receiver to tighten it and away from the receiver on the outside of the stock. IOW, the expansion is at least somewhat uniform in the wood.

Also the screw heads inletted in the sides of M14 stocks to hold the stock liner in, get more difficult to unscrew and take out of the stock during the summer when the wood expands.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

John,

Thanks for the explanation.

Gus

 

[Col. Batguano]

Here are a couple of links on wood movement; http://workshoppages.com/WS/Articles/Wood-Movement-Charts.pdf
http://www.woodworkerssource.com/movement.php
https://woodgears.ca/wood_grain/shrinkage.html https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/tipstechniques/wood-movement

 

[Artificer]

Those are great links.

However, they do not explain how the wood is only going to expand away from the sides of a tang during summer, as it seems you are maintaining, for the tang to be looser in summer?

Gus

 

[hanshi]

Absolutely agreed. They do not.

Wax doesn't hurt (but it doesn't really do anything positive, either), but please, do NOT put oil on a stock!!! Oil that does not dry turns wood to mush.




You're only partly correct. Oils that one would use inside the bore, for instance, WILL cause a problem with wood; this is not what we're talking about but rather a liquid "wax". No, the stock is not made wet (a waste of oil) but simply wiped off with a dampened cloth. After a period of time it does dry and certainly wears off much like a silicon cloth does.

If Type "F" does turn the wood stock to mush then why after more than a decade are mine still hard and firm with an even more lustrous finish that resists grit. Oils are used ubiquitously on stocks, furniture and wooden items without damage. Type "F" is basically paraffin in a liquid matrix. I do agree with you that wax isn't necessary; and that's why I only use it around once a year.

 

[Vaino]

Have built at least a few dozen LRs and some of the wood on some of the LRs has either elongated or shrunk and w/ others no discernible movement.

So, to play it safe, lugs will be slotted in case of wood movement, but not because of recoil. Besides....slotting doesn't take a whole lot of time and is good insurance.

Perhaps the displayed charts are quite suitable for furniture makers....Fred

 

[Col. Batguano]

Wood will expand everywhere. Within the space of the inlet, and outside of it. Think of a sponge that gets wet. However, if it is artificially confined, like in a press, that expansion is going to go toward the point of least resistance.

each piece of wood is a little different. though the charts are good guides, because it is made from individual living cells and arranged uniquely each piece will have its' own individual characteristics that can not be predicted by a physics formula. This is particularly so when you're talking precision to the thousanths of an inch, and variable moisture content and vapor exchange. So it doesn't hurt to give yourself a little wiggle room if you can. That may relieve some internal stress in the wood that might otherwise cause a crack to form, as it is not a homogeneous medium..

 

[Artificer]

Wood will expand everywhere. Within the space of the inlet, and outside of it. Think of a sponge that gets wet. However, if it is artificially confined, like in a press, that expansion is going to go toward the point of least resistance.

There is still more pressure on the wood against the sides of the tang as the wood expands, though, even if the tang does not allow further expansion once the wood contacts it. This makes the tang inlet tighter in summer when the wood expands, not looser.

Gus

 

[Col. Batguano]

Do a science experiment and draw the outline of a spoon handle on a dry sponge then wet it. Lay the spoon handle back on the outline of the now wetted sponge. Are the lines inside the spoon handle or further outside?

The material within the area of the inlet expands just as the material outside of the inlet does.

 

[necchi]

The material within the area of the inlet expands just as the material outside of the inlet does.

Yes, but not if the material is gone, as in the case of an inlet,

To do the experiment to show what Artificer is talking about.
You would have to draw the outline as you describe, then remove the spoon handle section with a knife,, then wet the sponge,
The "Inlet" or removed section will be smaller.

 

[Artificer]

Seems to me the correct science experiment would be to inlet the spoon first. Then take the spoon out. Then wet the sponge. Then you would see the sides of the inletted sponge shape expand into the inletted area when the sponge is wetted along with the inletted area expand.

Gus

 

[garra]

I use some stuff called Tom's 1/3 Mix, made for rifles, has bees wax and BLO in it, don't know what the third item is. Use it on all my rifles, vintage military and muzzle loaders.

 

[dikman]

I would say that the third item is turpentine, as mentioned in an earlier post. I also found this, which is pretty well what artificer is talking about ..WHY can't I add the link to the website?? The forum keeps changing it!!

I may have a go at mixing some up, but will probably use some gum turpentine I have, rather than mineral turps.

It sounds like it may give an interesting finish - albeit with a lot of hard rubbing!!

 

[Col. Batguano]

True emough. The water will penetrate from the outside in. Think about how wooden shingles cup up after a rain storm, when they are drying. When they become fully saturated or dry, the cup goes away.

The wood under and behind the tang will behave in the same way.

I was thinking why LR's might get longer and make the pins miss their lug hole in the barrel channel, which is a measured result unaccounted for by the expansion charts and tables. Perhaps it's because in curly maple, the grain is pretty much a zig-zag? The water entering the wood makes the cells get fatter more than longer, so the oblique angles of the grain have the effect of making the gun longer, as, grain almost never is perfectly straight and parallel. It's a theory anyway.

 

[necchi]

WHY can't I add the link to the website?? The forum keeps changing it!!

This forum won't allow links to other ML forums or auction sites, I think it's in the rules someplace.
Copy/Paste works, :wink: