Stopping power of the 1860 Army

[45D]

There is a simpler formula, velocity times velocity times bullet weight divided by 450,240.
My old army gives me 1102 fps with a rb, 41 gr of Swiss FFFG so I get 385 foot #. Does a good job on deer I can say.

Yep, there's also a handy-dandy "bullet energy calculator" one can Google. Plug in your weight and speed and Robert's your Uncle!

Mike

 

[Nav]

Using foot pounds and energy to understand terminal ballistics of projectiles only works on some kind of shield where there is no period of energy transfer. Even a steel plate has a period of energy transfer. Projectiles do not transfer force like that into soft tissue. The force is delivered over time and a distance of the wound channel vastly reducing the simple number the youtuber puts forward. Hence, the idea of "knockdown power" is a complete gun myth. Any gun that knocked down the target would knock down the shooter because of simple Newtonian physics. I believe that foot pounds being the unit of measurement is to blame, because people imagine getting hit with a piece of steel weighing that much rather than understanding how velocity distorts that measurement to seem like it is a great deal more force than it actually is. John Taylor's "Knock-Out" chart, as it relates to hunting elephants, injected a century of myth into the discussion. If he would have called it "penetration due to inertia", or anything else, we may have never even heard of "knock down" power.
There is such a thing as hydrostatic energy/shock, but you're not going to get there with BP, period. Below velocities that create hydrostatic shock bullets make holes, and unless you hit CNS those holes leaking (exsanguination) is what kills. This is why the boiler room (heart/lungs) is always considered the largest, lethal target. The difference between a .50 cal wound and a .68 cal wound is .18", period.
If I were anyone who is actually in a shooting community I would avoid the term "knockdown power" with prejudice. It comes from 18th century big game hunting were penetration into African, tough skinned, dangerous game IS a thing, but even there it's a misnomer. If you Google "knockdown power" all the top results are basically explanations of all the reasons it's a myth. What isn't a myth is that bigger balls have a higher BC and deliver more penetration at range because they retain more velocity.

All things being equal a ball is a terribly shaped projectile because of the turbulence it creates that slows it down so fast. Conicals are so much better because their ballistic coefficient is so much higher and they decelerate in flight so much slower. Once it reaches the target the shape ceases to matter very much at all (especially when we're talking soft bullets that deform).

 

[Chief Snorkel]

I stand corrected.

 

[CaptainVane]

 

[CaptainVane]

 

[Sam squanch]

It’s all up for debate. There have been 1 shot kills with a 22 lr. There have been people repeatedly hit with 45’s and 44’s that still kept moving. A punk in St. Louis was hit with a dragoon, the report said he stepped a few feet away and expired. It’s down to adrenaline and how much you have….

 

[Nav]

In 2024 you would be amazed what kind of minutia in statistical mathematics that long range and ELR (Extreme Long Range) shooters will argue about.

Understanding what's happening has a ton of math and physics at work, but to actually shoot (even unmentionables at extreme range) you don't need any math at all. Knowing the DOPE of your rifle is everything. You have to know how the rifle is going to actually preform to hit the target. The math and theoretical data is only useful in as much as it's going to get you in the ballpark.

For BP shooters it's better not to look at the math at all, especially when you compare it to modern, metalic cartridges shooting aerodynamic bullets. My .50 (177gr RB) has a BC half of my .22 (45gr LRN). At almost four times the weight it will travel about half as far. A .50 BP goes from supersonic at the muzzle to sub sonic at about 50 yards. Yes Virginia, it slows down that fast. Good thing it is the most stable bullet there is!

This little BP solver is pretty handy.
https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html

 

[Tom A Hawk]

That's funny right there!! I've got several of them and a pair of Dragoons that do well above that ! There's many out there that can do the same.

Mike

The open top 1860 was never intended for such abuse. If one wants to shoot hotter loads why not simply use a modern cartridge gun.

 

[Erwan]

This little BP solver is pretty handy.

That's right, I've this small free soft on my computers...
Without installation (workin' on Windows only and not Linux): Round Ball Ballistics Calculator for Muzzleloaders

 

[45D]

The open top 1860 was never intended for such abuse. If one wants to shoot hotter loads why not simply use a modern cartridge gun.

That's funny right there too!!!

First of all, anybody can go get a "modern" revolver. How do you know you don't already have something better? and prettier?!!

I don't really care what it was "INTENDED" to do ( we all already know that!), I'm interested in what a modern version is "CAPABLE" of doing !!! Never said you had to do what I do . . . I'm just giving you information.
I'm curious, you're obviously not . . . because of folks like me, you're not driving a T Model !! Lol

Mike

BTW, originals can't handle these type conversions, they are way too soft!!! ( again, more info)

 

[45D]

Any gun that knocked down the target would knock down the shooter because of simple Newtonian physics.

Just to be clear, someone shooting a 454 Casull with a 300gr bullet at 1700 fps which equals 1,961 ft.lbs ( ME) can't shoot that and not fall down?

Just curious . . .

I'm thinking David Bradshaw would probably disagree . . .
Mike

 

[Smokerr]

It’s all up for debate. There have been 1 shot kills with a 22 lr. There have been people repeatedly hit with 45’s and 44’s that still kept moving. A punk in St. Louis was hit with a dragoon, the report said he stepped a few feet away and expired. It’s down to adrenaline and how much you have….

Its really not up for debate, its certainly rife with opinions. Adrenaline is one factor but not the only one (note the Aorta hit and the nut job goes down). Not other hits on that nut job were lethal.

Head shot- that is a one and done.

Its the lethal hit (or not) that is a coin flip as to whether or not it is.

Get hopped up on drugs and you can ignore a lot of over time lethal.

The real aspect is, why would anyone in this day and age consider BP of any type for anything other than target shooting or hunting (and some of the hunting is the allowance of BP use, not so much the BP hunter is necessarily into it for BP though that has a higher chance).

BP be it ball or conical was what they had back in the day and you use the tool you have. It does not begin to make it the right tool for latter.

The military has a conundrum as it has a need to penetrate body armor and structures and try to make the same bullet lethal. Pretty much you wind up poking holes in people armor or not, you don't have a mushroom hunting bullet.

I knew one poacher from back in the early territorial days that took a Moose mid winter with a 22 shot through the lungs. It was quiet, the moose was lethargic from the winter strain and stood around until it lost enough blood to collapse. Not ethical but the guy was not interested in ethical, he wanted to get through the winter.

 

[45D]

The real aspect is, why would anyone in this day and age consider BP of any type for anything other than target shooting or hunting . . .

. . . because maybe THAT may be all they have or can have. It still beats a stick . . .
Why didn't the "poacher" just go to Kroger . . . ? (circumstances)


Mike

 

[Tom A Hawk]

. . . because maybe THAT may be all they have or can have. It still beats a stick . . .
Why didn't the "poacher" just go to Kroger . . . ? (circumstances)


Mike

That's what I was thinking. A little problem passing the background check?

 

[nkbj]

Gosh, I don't know fellas.
Chicago proves that people don't have to pass a background check.

 

[Celt5494]

Gosh, I don't know fellas.
Chicago proves that people don't have to pass a background check.

I was always curious if they have to possess a hood rat weapons permit myself.

 

[CVA Enthusiast]

"Stopping Power" I will say just my .02 cents, but Stopping Power aint squat compared to bullet placement. in other words an 1860 Army grazing shot does not stop as well as a .31 caliber to the chest. But hey I aint an expert, then again when I ask for "Provers" No one wants to step forwards

 

[M. De Land]

Elmer Keith agreed in his book Sixguns.

Also Elmer never believed in stopping power measured in foot pounds, he opined that pounds feet or the British thinking of momentum and penetration as far better indicators than kinetic energy expressed in foot pounds.

 

[44-henry]

That's funny right there too!!!

First of all, anybody can go get a "modern" revolver. How do you know you don't already have something better? and prettier?!!

I don't really care what it was "INTENDED" to do ( we all already know that!), I'm interested in what a modern version is "CAPABLE" of doing !!! Never said you had to do what I do . . . I'm just giving you information.
I'm curious, you're obviously not . . . because of folks like me, you're not driving a T Model !! Lol

Mike

BTW, originals can't handle these type conversions, they are way too soft!!! ( again, more info)

Once you have done a conversion it ceases to be an 1860 army. Not sure why these conversions are even being discussed here, you simply cannot get the ballistics you are mentioning from this revolver in the original cap and ball configuration which is what this post was originally about.

 

[45D]

Once you have done a conversion it ceases to be an 1860 army. Not sure why these conversions are even being discussed here, you simply cannot get the ballistics you are mentioning from this revolver in the original cap and ball configuration which is what this post was originally about.

Well sir, I'm very sorry that you are apparently very disturbed by the information I've given here. What was actually a passing remark concerning "knock down" power (because most folks that are interested in the "Handgun" section are aware that I don't shoot bp but I DO shoot converted bp revolvers) was in fact, just a passing remark. That may disturb you but it is what I enjoy so . . . I'm not into Rifles and things I once was, I'm pretty much a revolver guy.
That being the case, I'm sure some folks interested in handguns would also be interested in knowing the capabilities of the modern reproductions we seem to enjoy. Anybody can can fill the chambers of a revolver and shoot max loads safely, so why do folks ask "how much can I. . . " . The answer is simple. But the REAL question is what can my revolver ( of today) REALLY handle. You need something more powerful than bp to test the frame so, the 45acp conversion cylinder is an excellent way to find out with comparative numbers of other revolvers chambered in the same cartridge.
Turns out, the "modern" open-top platform is about as "modern" as you ever needed to get to handle modern +p ammo that many modern revolvers can't handle !! If that doesn't interest you then don't pay any attention to it . . . kind of like I don't spout off about Rifles that I don't care about.

Just because someone explains how to make your 18 second T-bucket an 8 sec 1/4 mile car doesn't mean YOU have to, it's just information!!

Mike

Oh BTW, with Kirst gated conversions, you can in fact still shoot with a percussion cylinder . . . you can't do that with the originals . . .