struggling to find a turkey load!

[adkmountainken]

first day at the range with the CVA 12 double. not to thrilled with the pattern after trying different loads. settled on 85 granis fff, 2 thick over powder cards, 1 1/2 ounces #5 shot and a thin over shot card. at 25 yards i was getting 4 to 6 in the vitals on each shot. i draw my own targets and the vitals of my target only include a small head and skinny neck, on a normal size target i'm sure it would be better. 25 yards would be my max and i really doubt i would shoot that far. will really try to limit shots to 20 yards max if possible. i need to do a lot more work as far as loads for this shotgun but i am confident to use it May 1. any help would be greatly appreciated with shot and loads.
Ken

 

[Rebel]

I have found that 20-25 yds is about all the range you can expect for a turkey pattern from cylinder bores no matter what gauge. I would try 2f powder, maybe 80-90 grs. Also try using just the thin overshot cards instead of the thick overpowder wads. Helped in my .20 ga. I use 4 of them over the powder then a paper shot cup made from index card with no slits in the sides. Make the cup shorter that than the shot load. I use cups that will hold 7/8 oz of #5 shot, but actually use 1 1/8 oz. Not sure it will help in your gun, but it is worth a try. Good luck.

 

[roundball]

You might try 2 or 3 wonderwads as OP wads...might tighten things a tad but overall I agree with Rebel, cylinder bore is cylinder bore and I never got any acceptable pattern for real small targets beyond about 20yds without resorting to home made paper shot cups...but even they occasionally[url] fail...in[/url] the end that's why I got mine Jug Choked.

You'd probably get a tighter long range pattern using your big strong 1" TC barrel with the smaller .56 bore and the following:

70-80grns Goex 3F
2-3 .58cal Oxyoke wonderwads
1+3/8oz or 1+1/2oz #6's
OS card

I experimented with different size shot charges in my GM .54cal Flint smoothie and the smaller bore throws a terrific pattern at longer ranges than you'd expect

 

[paulvallandigham]

That is too much powder. Stop thinking like you are shooting a modern gun with smokelss powder loads and choked tubes.

Read the V.M Starr article on Shotgun loads on the
Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook.
[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html[/url]

Compare to his article above on the site. You will get better results if you use a shotcup of some kind. In 12 gauge, you can use the modern shot cups, and they will improve the density of your patterns, and extend your range to 30 yards and possibly out to 35, if you use the correct shot size. I recommend #5 plated shot, 75 grains or less of black powder, and no more than 1 1/4 oz. of shot. YOu can add more shot- up to 1 1/2 oz to see if that adds more pellets to the core pattern, but I don't see enough improvement to warrant using all that extra shot.

You can use paper cups, but make them out of heavy paper-board( like index card stock) only thicker if you can find something. You will need to form them around a mandrill, and you can make that from wood dowel, or even pipe. You can glue the seams, and tape the bottom. Try finding 20 or 16 gauge card wads to put in the bottom of the cup to give a firm surface. Or you can use a couple of OS cards , but you will need them also in a reduced size, so that the entire package will slide down your 12 ga. barrels easily. Cut slits in the sides of the cups, just like the plastic ones have, so that when the "Petals " hit the air outside the muzzle, they open up and allow the shot to separate from the cup. Never make the cup longer than the amount of shot, as the ends will fold over your shot, and created a shotgun slug that is frangible when it hits. Us a standard OS card to hold the shot in the barrel.

The cup protects the outside pellets from rubbing a flat on them as they travel down the barrel. That helps them keep their shape, and stay in the pattern. Try to keep the shotcup a lose but close fit to the bore of the gun. Use an Over powder card, or a couple of overshot cards on top of the powder to seal the gases. Roundball likes the felt Wonderwads, but I am not impressed with the consistency of velocity they give, over more firm materials. I believe that gas blows by the felt wads, when it doesn't with the Overpowder, or OS cards. At least that is what the chronograph is telling me. Finally, consider switching to FFg powder, as it is more foregiving, and it wil recoil less. That does not matter much on a hunt, but it does when you are on a range, trying to learn how to shoot that shotgun.

 

[snagg]

Paul:
Some great suggestions there. My son has been working on loads for his 12 ga. Brown Bess for turkey. We've tried various things, but will try some of your tips tomorrow. We've used O.P. cards, cushioned wads, and O.S. cards and various charges of powder hoping to find the correct combo. We only have until next weekend.

snagg

 

[Eric Krewson]

Here is a great, free, turkey target.
[url] http://www.guncustomizing.com/targprt.htm[/url]

 

[roundball]

It sure is and I'd like to thank you again for making me aware of that target a few weeks ago as well...I was lucky to be able to print off 100 in color.

It realy shows just how tiny the skull & neck vertebrae is...you can shoot the paper and think, hummm...60 pellets in an 8" x 11" target at 40yds is great...BUT...it's ONLY great if a few pellets make it into the skull/vertebrae EVERY time...let's you see precisely in 5 yard increments at what distance you can no longer do that.
:hatsoff:

(THEN...you graduate to the scientific Tuna Can Penetration Test!)

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree with Roundball, about using the Tuna Can to test penetration at yardage. its a good test medium, and most people have access to tuna cans, if they only remember to hang on to them, wash them out, and put them in a sack that will make the trip to the range! ( Please don't ask me which one of those items I forgot the last time I went shooting!)

If you can't eat tuna, try using fruit cans, or any other can made of steel, rather than aluminum. The steel that is used in the canning industry is pretty much the same thickness, so you are not going to be off by much when using a can other than one that held tuna.

The reason I like #5 shot so much is that it delivers adequate energy out quite a distance, even at modest velocities. That makes it worth the trouble of finding a source for it. YOu can buy #5 plated shot( stick with the nickel- plated shot) from ballistic products, which is listed under member resourced here.

 

[ssettle]

Rebel has the right Idea. I have a Dixie 10 gage and was out today patterning it while the kids were in the club house taking their hunters safety course. I was using 2oz. of number 6's with 90 grains of 2f goex thru an improved choke. Patterning with my gun has been an on going project for afew years.I've tried a number of things, I made up shotcups with index cards, heavy paper, and coin roll paper. I got 39 pellets in the head at 30 yards today. But I also found that with my double barrel I have to aim to the right of the target acouple inches. I have to work on the cylinder bore side next to see how it does before the 28th opener this coming weekend. I'd like to get at least 25 yards outta it. I did away with the heavy shot card and went with 2 overshot cards and a 1/8" felt wad plus the single over shot card over the 6's. Everyone has the own receipe for getting a good pattern. I think I found one for my improved barrel.

 

[adkmountainken]

trust me i do not want to use 85 grains, it is a waste of powder but it happened to be the load that gave me best results as far as pattern. i started of with 70 grains fff and 1 oz of #5's. i worked my way up with both powder and shot untill i got to 85 grains and 1 1/2 oz which gave me the best pattern. i do not like magnum loads but this one works best. i have not hunted with nor do i compare my smooth bore to a regular shotgun. i have taken my last 2 turkeys with a smooth bore, i do not hunt with modern rifle at all. i do not want to use plastic cups or paper shot cups, i enjoy the traditional aspect. as i said i am confident with this set up but am allways looking for info.

 

[Rebel]

I would still try 2f powder in it and the overshot cards over the powder and the shot. JMO

 

[roundball]

"...i do not want to use 85 grains, it is a waste of powder..."

Remember though...you're not talking about a general purpose load for powder puff doves at 20-25 yds that'll drop pretty easy...you're talking about wanting to be able to break turkey neck bones at 35-40yds...takes some extra powder to get the velocity for the larger payload to have energy at distance

 

[adkmountainken]

Bill,
i agree with you, but i would NEVER take a shot over 25 yards with muzzleloader or regular shotgun. i have hunted turkeys many years and know how tuff they are. i have only lost one and that was around 30 yards with my 56. smooth bore, should have known better, was a huge boss gobbler. i am very good at knowing my limits and letting them walk away if need be.

 

[adkmountainken]

most of my hunting is done in the hard woods and ridges which gives you ( most of the time ) very close shots as opposed to field birds who can survey their surroundings and are very hard to keep coming in once they don't see what they think they should. i have killed birds at 7 and 10 steps before. i like to set up just in front of a small rise or dip, once they hit the rise or dip they are very close and you can get a shot before they react.

 

[roundball]

Bill,
"...i would NEVER take a shot over 25 yards with muzzleloader or regular shotgun..."

Then it sounds like you're go to go with the load you've settled on...I misunderstood your post...thought you were asking for help to get a better long range pattern...hope you fill your tags

 

[adkmountainken]

i'm looking for help on getting a more dense patten at 20-25 yards. would really like to get 10-20 hits in the vitals but i guees that is not going to be possible with smooth bore.

 

[snagg]

Eric:
That's a dandy target. I saved it to the computer for future use, Thanks.

snagg

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you are going to restirct your shots to under 25 yards, as you say, then you should consider using #6 shot, to fill that pattern, rather than all that #5 shot. You will get a lot more pellets in the pattern using the smaller shot, and you won't have to use so much shot. You should understand, however, that when you raise powder to increase velocity, you negate those increases in velocity when you then increase the amount of shot you are pushing. Again, I suggest going back to V.M. Starr's article on shot loads.

Like Roundball, I too thought you were looking for advice on how to extend your shooting range. I commend you for being more interested in Hunting, than in shooting, and being willing to pass on shots that are outside the shorter range. Most shooters we hear from here are looking for loads to kill turkeys at 60 yards or further, if possible, just like the waterfowl hunters do.

I want to commend Roundball on his choice of decoys, as I think you can benefit from his experience with his first turkey this season. He had hen decoys, but he also put out a " Jake " decoy, and it was the jake that caused the incoming Tom to forget where he was, and come running on in. This set up makes much more sense than setting out a lone hen turkey, or a small groups of hens only.

 

[adkmountainken]

Paul,
thank you very much for all the info and thank you also for posting the turkey target picture which i made 20 copies of!
I guess i only stay with #5's as i had recieved a feww bag from a friend and i have killed 2 nice jakes using 5's. i really enjoy shooting black powder but i am a hunter through and through. i learned a hard lesson on a gobbler i had missed at around 30 yards with the 56. and i will not shoot over 25 now and i am really shooting for 15 yards. i am not a field hunter and have not had much success with decoys as the gobblers just don't seem to see them when coming through the woods. there are a few times when a big boss has hung up with in sight and i have kicked myself for not bringing decoys but where i hunt i do A LOT of hiking and locating, i try to keep my gear to a minimum and bring only the necesities. i absolutly love hunting turkeys and for me its not in the kill but the game. if i have the chance to learn a few things from a wise old bird and it means i have to pass him up to learn them i will. i have figured out a few good tricks to bring them back in and settle them down by letting a few walk away and watching their actions. you would be supprised the differance that throwing a hand full of dirt and leaves makes as opposed to scratching the leaves on the ground! that is one lesson that i learned and go to many times now. once again thanks for the advice and keep it coming!
Ken

 

[clayman49]

Please remember light loads gives light impacts and may not be as humain. The old can trick surgested else were is a good test. Happy shooting