Student arrested with Black powder gun

[roundball]

IMO, the zero tolerance policy is absolutely ridiculous.
This week's current story is that a Mom was in a hurry, packed her 8 year old / 3rd grader's lunch box with slices of bread in a ziploc bag, a picnic package of peanut butter & jelly...and without thinking, a kitchen butter knife.
The 8 year is currently serving a 7 day suspension.

ZERO TOLERANCE IS STUPID!

 

[Claude Mathis]

IMO, the zero tolerance policy is absolutely ridiculous.
This week's current story is that a Mom was in a hurry, packed her 8 year old / 3rd grader's lunch box with slices of bread in a ziploc bag, a picnic package of peanut butter & jelly...and without thinking, a kitchen butter knife.
The 8 year is currently serving a 7 day suspension.

ZERO TOLERANCE IS STUPID!

I also know of a local case where a kid was disciplined for "DRUGS" in school because her mother sent her to school with over the counter cold medicine. Obviously the law was not intended for that, so there has to be SOME flexibility. Perhaps sending a note with the medicine to alert the "swat team" that the kid has a cold.

I guess the problem with "Zero Tolerance" is, how you define a "knife"? A butter knife should be okay, but perhaps a 10" hunting knife should be prohibited?

The problem comes when a kid sharpens a butter knife to get around the "flexibility" of the law. Anybody remember the "zip gun"? It's not a "firearm", it's just a piece of pipe with a rubber band and a nail." ::

You know that eventually some kid will knowingly take a knife to school, get caught and his parents will lie to get him off. I think the "no tolerance people" are trying to say that some things are not acceptable, no matter how many "excuses" you come up with to justify your mistake.

Personally, I would have done nothing to the girl with the butter knife or the kid with the musket. These are obvious cases where intelligence and the "Spirit of the Law" needs to over-rule the "Letter of the Law.

 

[Keith]

"These are obvious cases where intelligence and the "Spirit of the Law" needs to over-rule the "Letter of the Law."

Good point. Sometimes it is necesary to ask what is the point of this law? Is this law meant to prevent/deter/punish this activity? If the answer is no, well the action is obvious. :m2c:

 

[Ravenx]

There was another case where a kid was in trouble for his asthma inhaler. So, the school "compromised" and said he should keep it in the nurse's office. Not good enough, an asthma attacks can kill and time is of the essence during an asthma attack. Simply ridiculous. There was also a case here in Flagstaff, AZ where one kid had an allergy to peanuts. So, the school adopted a zero tolerance to peanut products AND any food labeled as having been made in a facility that processes peanuts. Kids had their peanut-butter and jelly sandwiches confiscated and not replaced with another food by the school the day they enacted the policy. Well, the school finally relented due to the uproar to allow kids to bring peanuts, but the mother of the kid with the peanut allergy is now upset. It's a clear case of the lack of parental discipline. If mom says "no peanuts, son, it can kill you", her word should be law until said kid is 18. Parents are trying to relegate their duties to the government and that, in and of itself, is a dangerous precedent. Because then government thinks it has the duty to regulate ALL kids, resulting in highly questionable curriculum, among other things. Parenting is a responsibility and anyone not willing to take on that resposibility should not have kids. It doesn't "take a village" to raise a child. It takes two parents willing to love and raise that child AND apply the occasional belt to the child's fourth point of contact when necessary. Parents who expect the "village" to raise their child are saying they're either too lazy or too stupid to do it themselves. :m2c:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Parenting is a responsibility and anyone not willing to take on that resposibility should not have kids...
...Parents who expect the "village" to raise their child are saying they're either too lazy or too stupid to do it themselves.

Amen!

 

[roundball]

Parents who expect the "village" to raise their child are saying they're either too lazy or too stupid to do it themselves.

Speaking of Hillary...the only silver lining if kerry/edwards get elected is that hillary's chances of ever running for president will be over

 

[musketman]

I was staying clear of this topic, but alas, I can't...

There was a case not too long ago of zero tolerence when a student brought a tiny plastic "gun" from an action figure set to school... I wonder if anyone in their right mind would agree to that?

If that be the case, all the text books in school that have pictures of guns in them (history & art mostly) should have those pictures ripped out, Right???

You can't even have a picture on a gun on a t-shirt without getting sent home to change in Pymatuning Valley schools, talk about extream...

The rules shoud state NO REAL FIREARMS are allowed...

And how many teachers are packing heat these days???

 

[Zonie]

Then there is the story of the 2nd grader who had the nerve to draw a poor picture of a gun on a piece of paper using his crayons.
He was suspended for several days.

I would guess that when teaching history, the events will be covered but the guns envolved won't be mentioned in schools.
After all, the kids don't need to know anything about what kind of guns were used, or how firearms evolved. They also don't need to know how to safely handle guns.

Keeping kids ignorant of guns serves several purposes.
It complies with the No Guns in School policy
It keeps guns in the "unknown" catagory. Fear of the unknown is a wonderful tool to use when passing new anti-gun laws.
People are glad to pass laws against things they fear.

An unintended consequence is it provokes a curiosity about guns which can lead uneducated kids, who were raised in households where guns don't exist, to messing with real guns when they are found in someones house. This unfortunatly can lead to deadly situations.

The sad results of this kind of curosity can also be used as a tool by anti-gunners to pass such things as the Safety Lock laws and future laws requireing that all of your guns will be kept at the Police station until you want to use yours. Then you will need to show a reason for wanting to use your gun before they will give it to you. You will also be required to return your gun to the police when you are thru using it.

Fortunately, those of us in the USA don't have that last one
yet, but if many have their way, it's going to exist here.

Oh, once we reach that level, it's just a small step to require that the police (who already have the guns) be required to grind up and melt down all of the guns they have been keeping for you.
Gee, didn't the Aussies do something like that? :curse:

 

[Keith]

"Parenting is a responsibility and anyone not willing to take on that resposibility should not have kids."

I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately many people have kids, because they didn't take responsibility while having sex. Too many in fact are nothing more than kids themselves.

 

[nvbirdman]

"These are obvious cases where intelligence and the "Spirit of the Law" needs to over-rule the "Letter of the Law."

This sounds a lot like what I said earlier. (Zero tolerance=zero intelligence.) :imo:

 

[breech]

I hear alot of people say well if its the law we have to abide.Obviously and sometimes sadly its true but we have to realise that alot of laws some laws take away not only our constitutional rights but moral and ethical[url] rights.In[/url] this country should we as free people have anything such as zero tolerance or should as sensible people be able to sort out the wrong doers from the simple minded.I believe olowing zero tolerance anywhere in this country is just what the anti gun haters,knife haters america haters need and want and as long as we let them win we freedom loving americans lose.

 

Personal experiences related to zero tolerance in schools:

Some years ago when he was in 6th grade, my youngest son was given a marijuana joint by the school reprobate at recess. He threw it away while going back to class but someone saw him do it, so he and the other parties were brought to the office and questioned. He did not hesitate to tell the truth and another boy corroborated the story (except the person who gave him the drugs - he denied all involvement). They did not call the police because my son was an "A" student with perfect attendance SINCE THE FIRST GRADE, but he and the boy who witnessed the event were sent to ISS (In School Suspension), which ruined his perfect attendance record. The reprobate was not disciplined because he vehemently denied his part and no one beyond these three kids saw the initial exchange occur. I met with all of the school officials involved in the incident and they said their hands were tied and nothing could be done. They admitted privately that the incident probably happened exactly as told but "rules were rules" and they would not step outside of district guidelines. People need their jobs and it seems you get fired if you deviate from the policy that the lawyers and school board developed so it's become safer for adults to adopt zero tolerance and not use any judgement. My son said later the only "safe" thing he learned from the incident was to lie and deny any involvement. He is now in high school and has missed no school days since this happened but his perfect attendance is gone and his record is blemished.

A second brief story involves a girl at the same high school. Her truck broke down on Sunday night so she borrowed her dad's to go to school on Monday. He had been dove hunting that weekend and left empty shotgun shells in the truck bed - no live rounds and no guns. The roving security guard saw them in plain view and guess what? - she was subsequently sent to ISS for three days. In that instance, the police were called and a report filed because it involved weapons.

Zero tolerance is also applied to fist-fights. Teachers used to break them up and take people to the office. The next step was that the assaulting person was sent away but now, both parties are punished. If you are walking down the hallway and get sucker-punched, you are suspended. The rationale behind this is that no fights are unprovoked so both parties are guilty. The result is that fights are now moved off campus where no adults have a chance of interceding. Subsequently, more serious injuries occur because the fight goes until someone is too hurt to continue.

I'm sorry to say it but if this mentality had existed 60 years ago, I think we would now all be saluting the Third Reich...

 

[Stumpkiller]

My son said later the only "safe" thing he learned from the incident was to lie and deny any involvement

Now I know this is a sore spot with you, and I am sorry it was your son, but . . .

If he accepted the joint and, even though just a short time, later threw it away, then he was in consciously in possession for a time. That's illegal. Did he accept it to be cool or avoid having the crap kicked out of him? If he had not accepted it at all there would have been no event.

I had 17-1/2 years with the same company and only missed three days for sick time over that period. That company is now an empty field and I sure wish I'd have played hookey once or twice a year and gone fishing or hunting. :winking:

 

[gordy]

It would probably best if I kept my comments to myself.But all my life I've been objecting to the restrictions the various goverments (Town,County and National)feel they need to control the general populations.It makes Me sad to read that some folks feel that rules of zero tolerence are to be accepted.Since most schools in this country have been centralized,the parents have been stripped of any meaningfull input as to school rules and regulations. When some middle school campuses contain in excess of 3000 students it becomes a breeding grounds for the spread of disrespect,discurtesty and avoidance of common sense rules.The idea of centralized schools,according to the early proponants)was economy by being able to have less administrative and teaching personell for more students.Just the transportation needed to convey the students to and from school outweighs any saveing in personell numbers.And the truth is that more and more personell (non-teaching) are added every year.The idea that fulltime guards are needed to control the student body is absurd.It's My opinion that smaller localized schools ,with school boards that had to answer to, and adhere to, the wishes of the parents,would go a long way in improveing relations with teachers and administration and the students.After communitys were encouraged (forced) into the mentality of centralization,disipline,and relations,with and amongest, the students became a disaster.The end result is zero tolerance laws.As the Nation changed from rural to urban and suburban,the anti-gunners anti-hunters,gained great footholds in our schools.Many kids today have no experience with nature,and untill this is corrected,we'll continue down the path to the loss of those rights guarenteed us in the text of the Bill of Rights.The 2nd amendment has been infringed on more and more every day.There may be no way to stop this momentum but We as parents and gun owners,need to do all that is possible to stop it.One of the biggest things We can do,is get out and vote for the canidates who belive in the preservation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.Well I've beat My gums enough!Unless there is much more information about the incident with the CW musket, we arn't privy to,the kid should not be punished.We need to take back control of the education and disipline of our children . :imo:

 

[Rebel]

Amen to that. :agree: If the schools and the parents had the right to dicipline the kids, there wouldn't be all these problems. We all survived school, with the Paddle in the Pricipals office, and knowing if we did something wrong we would get a first hand demonstration of it. We also knew that when we got home we were going to get it even worse. A good A** beating never killed anyone. There is a difference between discipline and Abuse. Kids need discipline, but they don't need abused. Our Government has way too much control over our lives. We need to be responsible for our own mistakes and take the consequences, not have the Government decide what is RIGHT and SAFE for us. BIG BROTHER is watching and we need to do something about that before it is too late. This upcoming election will be the most important election in our lifetime. If John Kerry gets elected, and then does as is being said and puts Bill Clinton in as Secretary General of the U.N. you can forget about having any rights, let alone Gun rights. We will be under complete U.N. control by the end of his term, and become just another 3rd World Nation. :imo:

 

The youngster definitely should face some consequences. I mean, 1.] the musket does not belong in his car on school grounds, unless requested for a demonstration. (Shudder the thought!) 2.] He needs his hide tanned for not taking proper care of said musket. It should have been brought in the house and properly cleaned and lubricated!

I'm not for zero tolerance. Its too much like killing flies with a scatter gun. Too often the fly gets away and an innocent bystander catches the blast. But, then again, years gone by, back in New Orleans, during the early 1970's I had to shimmy down a drain spout from the second floor library in Junior High to keep from becoming a bullet stop for a .38 special in the hands of a Junvenile Deliquent. Hey, I'm crazy, not stupid.

We need to stop wheeling and dealing justice and punish the real criminals and stop using law bidding citizens to make examples. :m2c:

 

I went through that rigamarow with my son last year. Had to get letters from the Doctor and put them on file with the school nurse, who kept the inhaler under lock and key! Then I got called in for an "inappropriate" comic book about a war between werewolves and vampires! :nono:
:shake: :youcrazy:

There was another case where a kid was in trouble for his asthma inhaler. So, the school "compromised" and said he should keep it in the nurse's office. Not good enough, an asthma attacks can kill and time is of the essence during an asthma attack. Simply ridiculous.

 

Stump,

I made sure that my son understood he had used bad judgement in this situation by accepting the joint and yes, he took it to be cool. Teenage boy machismo made him afraid not to...we raised four boys and I have no problems with discipline being applied but the degree of punishments being used on otherwise good kids has become unreasonable. It's somewhat like being electrocuted for jaywalking (on the first offense). Conversely, when I was in school in the '60's, the bleeding hearts were in power and not much was done for discipline. I went to a bad inner-city junior high school and there were four or five fights every day. I was an "A" student but still managed to get stabbed twice (neither time severely - once in 7th and once in 8th grade). Our principal was assaulted on the last day of school and his right eye socket fractured.

The pendulum has swung the other way and zero tolerance has taken over. Although I am not happy with some of the treatment, I have to say I prefer it to having to worry daily about my kids being shot, stabbed or beaten.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Oh, lord knows the stupid things I did in my childhood. Trying to "look cool" or get noticed, or just bored. And some I continue to do. Like doing 130mph two months ago and spotting a State Police van in the traffic 500 ft ahead :shocking: Got away with a warning, but only because I was polite and told the truth . . . except for the part about pulling the emergency brake HARD instead of the foot brakes so the brake lights didn't flash or the tires squeal . . . and they didn't have a ticket book in the van. Might have been the Muzzleloading Forum bumber sticker.

We get something like 150 new Federal laws a year, and probably at least that many in every state. Our legal system is choking to death in it's own waste, and I do feel sorry for the judges and officers who have to enforce them. Especially for the well - enough meaning people who get caught up in the gray areas.

Nobody feels sorry for the lawyers.

If I had the answers I'd be running for office.

Say, don't you think in something as important as the job of President we ought to get a half-dozen choices? My company doesn't hire a receptionist without screening at least six applications.

With 7% unemployment, how come we let senators and congressmen hang around until they're 80 and 90? Retire and go spend some of that lobbyist payola you been sockin away and let a young guy with a family have a job. Be much better for the economy.

Sorry. Venting again.

 

[noah]

Oh so typical of a reaction to a harmless action.Why not ask some questions and make a decision based on why he had a gun in the damn parking lot.Kids all over the country are being slammed while Jr. Criminals are carrying small handguns to and from schools as the norm.Little kids are being expelled for stupid things such as a paring knife in a lunch box,mistakenly left by the mother after peeling an apple!A little boy drawing a picture of his hero,who just so happened to be serving in the middle east.That's right in the army,oh yes the picture showed big brother with his rifle.You can thank the liberal movement for these knee jerk reactions.What would you have thought of guns in general ,if when you were young you had been punished for merely drawing a picture.Push that anti-gun crap,disarm all of us,won't it be easy to control a nation full of people who can't defend themselves.I spend time every year doing Traditional muzzleloader demo's for 4-h groups and Boy Scouts.Part of my goal is to show kids guns aren't all bad.To many kids come from anti gun homes.Someone needs to teach them our heritage.Maybe they'll go on to become shooters or maybe not.Let's let them decide for themselves whether they want to or not.Don't let the liberals take away what our forefathers and some of us fought for,FREEDOM.Plain and simple FREEDOM.If I want to shoot and do no harm to anyone nor brake any laws,why must I give give up my right to have a gun?Why do teachers have the right to spew their anti-gun nonsence but I cannot come to the school and give a talk on the safe handling and use of same?WE all have the right to our opinion,WE also have the right to vote.WE need to excercise that right in a few days,vote wisely.Noah