"substitutes" for real Black Gun Powder

[wb78963]

First let me start by saying the "P" stuff and 777 are about as much a substitute for real Black Gun Powder as Kentuckian hill country moonshine is a substitute for 40 year old single barrel Scotch.
I realize that there are places that, because of uninformed laws, the real Black Gun Powder in unobtainable. Therefore the only option is the above mentioned products or better yet APP, Black MZ, or Jim Shokey's Gold, which is the same product and a distinctly different chemistry than the above mentioned. It is close to real BP for fouling and cleans very much the same way.
But if you are constrained by local laws to shoot "P" or 777 rea this carefully.
It is fron the CAS forum in the Powder room section on cleaning after use.
Hopefully this link will work.
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,56362.0.htm
I don't want to start a war here just trying to inform fellow shooters
Respectfully
Bunk

 

[Frontier's]

To save yourself some time...Lots of hot water... to clean pyrodex... not rocket science, as it turns out lmao.

 

[wb78963]

Personally I would rather shoot stainless steel balls and clean with battery acid that use that stuff.
No it is not rocket science it is chemistry and metallurgy.
But as Hondo Lane said "man ought to do what he thinks best"
But that is just me.
Bunk

 

[bang]

After seeing the prices I'll stick with Pyro P for 20. All of it can eat at the metal if not properly and promptly cleaned. After 20 years of using it and not loosing any parts it just makes money sense.

 

[wb78963]

check Sportsman's Warehouse for Black MZ. Easier to clean that BP and no more corrosive. I got mine with Hazmat for about $12 a pound and they have remington #10 caps.
I use it volume for volume as BP with good results in all y cap revolvers but not in flintlocks.
Bunk

 

[mooman76]

They quit making Black MZ. I don't know why but there could still be some around yet.

 

[Howard Pippin]

First let me start by saying the "P" stuff and 777 are about as much a substitute for real Black Gun Powder as Kentuckian hill country moonshine is a substitute for 40 year old single barrel Scotch.
I realize that there are places that, because of uninformed laws, the real Black Gun Powder in unobtainable. Therefore the only option is the above mentioned products or better yet APP, Black MZ, or Jim Shokey's Gold, which is the same product and a distinctly different chemistry than the above mentioned. It is close to real BP for fouling and cleans very much the same way.
But if you are constrained by local laws to shoot "P" or 777 rea this carefully.
It is fron the CAS forum in the Powder room section on cleaning after use.
Hopefully this link will work.
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,56362.0.htm
I don't want to start a war here just trying to inform fellow shooters
Respectfully
Bunk

Perhaps that's true, but so is all equipment that all of us use to be muzzleloader shooters compared to what was used in 1803. Most of those early hunters and shooters were quick to realize the advantage of percussion caps. Apparently the hawken brothers also noticed.Those that want to hang onto Flint can do so for whatever reasons that they use as I also shoot flint sometimes. But when I'm using my percussions, I go through the very same motions that you do to load and fire, and pretty much the same things when I clean. The differences is, they had a government who didn't give a rip about those that had black powder and we have a government that thinks they should run everything. I think about those early trappers and hunters who slept in a smelly pelt and one wool blanket when I crawl into my nice warm camper, and fire up my catalytic heater. Don't you think they would've used what I have if they would've had It?
I was one of those that shot a percussion 30 years ago strictly with pyrodex. That old Thompson Center still shoots good, the bore don't look too bad and I would shoot it more if it wasn't so blamed heavy. I never took that many special steps cleaning it, it's a Hawkens design, So the barrel came off quick, hot water seem to remove the crud and the only concession I made was cleaning it the following day again with patches. Did I shoot it every day? No, likely to shoot probably five times a summer, but the cleanup was no more than what I have to do with black in my flint lock.
Squint

 

[Frontier's]

They stopped making black mz when American pioneer powder blew up.

 

[Walkingeagle]

I use and love Pyro P in my .54 T/C Renegade barrel. Shoots awesome and cleans up great.
These anti pyrodex threads sure get old!
Walk

 

[Pete G]

They quit making Black MZ. I don't know why but there could still be some around yet.

My understanding is that it was not very stable. It would deteriorate rapidly once opened.

 

[Carbon 6]

There is no substitute for real black powder, only long list of poor attempts.
It's like trying to reinvent the wheel, sure, people have done it, but none are as successful as the original.

 

[Carbon 6]

I use and love Pyro P in my .54 T/C Renegade barrel. Shoots awesome and cleans up great.
These anti pyrodex threads sure get old!
Walk

Pyrodex is the closest to real black powder. Pyrodex is the only substitute that contains sulfur. Without sulfur, you're not really shooting a muzzleloader, only pretending.
To shoot a muzzleloader one has to experience a thick cloud of white smoke and the distinct smell of sulfur, otherwise you are just "phoning it in".

 

[user 34300]

"I realize that there are places that, because of uninformed laws, the real Black Gun Powder in unobtainable. "
Call Grafs or wherever and order some powder.

 

[dlidster]

My understanding is that it was not very stable. It would deteriorate rapidly once opened.

I've been happy with it. When I found it was being discontinued I bought a pound every time I went my nearest Sportsman's Warehouse for $9.95 till they finally ran out. I think I have 15-18 pounds of it.

I can't attest to deterioration of opened containers because it always performs well until I have to start with a fresh container. In chronographing equivalent loads I've found it less energetic than Triple 7 and more energetic than Pyrodex RS. It's really clean -- I never wipe between shots. It leaves no crud ring. I'm delighted with the accuracy I get with beeswax/olive oil lube and .012 matress ticking with many different loads.

I clean by vigorously pumping soapy water through the barrel with the nipple removed and immersed on a plastic coffee "can" of soapy water. Nothing to it.

So, when my 15-18 pounds runs out I think I'll be a little disappointed.

 

[user 34300]

My understanding is that it was not very stable. It would deteriorate rapidly once opened.
That sounds more like American Pioneer and Shockey's Gold.

 

[mooman76]

Some people claim Pyrodex does it too yet I have some close to 30 years old, still work fine.

 

[Howard Pippin]

Me too.

 

[Stantheman86]

American Pioneer is Black MZ.

I only have one rifle that uses it.

Powderinc ships to all 50 states I thought?

It's just me maybe but 100% of the reason I shoot muzzleloaders is to experience the historical aspect. I'm not really a Hunter or competition shooter. Pouring Pyrodex into a real 1861 Springfield is a complete no-go for me.

 

[steam1993]

My 1.25 in cannon loves American Pioneer. Have not tried in in my other 2 cannons yet, can not live fire 3 at one time, ok i could. I use BP now because i get some given to me at a event i do, also finding AP.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

There is no substitute for real black powder, only long list of poor attempts.
It's like trying to reinvent the wheel, sure, people have done it, but none are as successful as the original.

I'm in complete agreement. There are alternatives, but no true substitutes. I tried Pyrodex, once... many years ago. It did not shoot as hard as real BP and I have never gone back. I understand that some poor folks may have no alternative, due to the laws and politics in their state of residence. They are most unfortunate and may not realize what they are missing. Having compared the various real BP options, I only buy Swiss now. Great stuff.