Swamped barrels...common?

[4575wcf]

One thing I noticed in Wallace's video is how much more time and hammering is required at the middle of the barrel where the weld is first started then is needed as the weld progresses outward toward both ends. I think the swamping maybe built itself into the barrel to a degree.

 

[Flinter 2]

LOL, I've been muzzle loading, reenacting, and rendezvousing since the early '70's, been on countless period treks and hundreds of woods walks and countless M/L line shoots and never once has anyone questioned the authenticity of my swamped barrel Isaac Haines flint lock long rifle, and it's a good thing too, I really hate it when some fool starts a fight when there's no need for one.
I have always tried to be period correct in my clothes, camp, and gear, and I've been at it long enough to have it all pretty much squared away, but folks new to the historical lifestyle are not that fortunate, they often need helpful information to keep them centered, What they don't need are self centered thread counters criticizing their choices.
I happen to know that my Rifle with it's swamped barrel is period correct, but if it wasn't according to time frame I'd carry it anyway, it fits me that well.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@4575wcf has the right idea. When a barrel tube is made from a skelp, the forging starts toward the middle and proceeds to the ends. The result is the steel at the forging temperature will flow. The metal will flow from the center to the ends. The Smith has some control as he uses swaging blocks to control the shape as the weld moves from the center to the breech and muzzle. To some extent the flow and dimensions can be controlled with the swaging blocks but the metal moves from the center to the edges. All the forged barrels are flared. It may take some measuring but the taper from the breech to the waist and the flare from the waist to the muzzle will be there.

It is my speculation that the flared barrel was not a design feature, but a manufacturing end result. If the flared barrel was such a superior design for rifle barrels why did the practice end when the deep hole drills and milling machines changed the process for making a barrel. It then became easier to slightly taper a barrel to remove weight from the muzzle and have a bit larger breech for safety with heavy loads.

 

[4575wcf]

Okay it is decided. When I tackle the overhaul on the barrel I will set up some bench centers, an index stop for the flats, a proper guide for the rotary file and give her a little swamp. First though I gotta fresh. Is there a source for good round ball molds in the 55-56 range? I need to know if I can get a proper sized mold first. Or I guess I could make up a soapstone and wooden one, I see lots of sizes and grades of soapstone on etsy.

 

[D.Summers]

It seems to me that a swamped barrel was a design feature. Not to ever argue with Grenadier, ever, but it seems, looking at extant barrels from the times we're talking about, that many were larger at the breech, slimmer in the middle, and flared at the muzzle. I don't think that was a production flaw/ mistake. It seems to have been a way to balance the long rifles, which, unswamped, would've been muzzle heavy.

 

[D.Summers]

Tapered was one way of doing things. I had a great grandfather, who was born in the late 1860's, who was a blacksmith, among other occupations, who told my mother, his grandchild, that there were no mistakes made in their craft. Everything they did was precise. He was not a gunsmith, but he was a fine craftsman. Maybe he actually did make some mistakes, but I believe that a swamped barrel was a thing made on purpose.

 

[Artificer]

It is my speculation that the flared barrel was not a design feature, but a manufacturing end result.

When rifle barrelsmiths or gunsmiths heated a long flat bar of Iron and shaped it into a U Shape and began welding it closed in the middle, they did so to be able to remove the mandrel (Iron/Steel Rod) that rough formed the bore as they went along. They shaped the outside of the barrel with a swage block to Octagon shape as well, before they moved the Mandrel further along towards each side of the barrel. This made it easier to move the Mandrel along and not get it forge stuck in the barrel, BTW. Here is a demonstration swage block with barrel in it, though it isn't actually being welded or formed:

So had they wished to make a straight barrel, they could have done so using only one size female form in the swage block.

Further, they had what they called "Rubbers" which were large to extremely large files they used to finish draw file the barrels to the flared shapes. Some of these got so large it took two men to use them. Though I have personally never draw filed an Iron Barrel, I've read original descriptions it was something like planing really tough wood.

If the flared barrel was such a superior design for rifle barrels why did the practice end when the deep hole drills and milling machines changed the process for making a barrel. It then became easier to slightly taper a barrel to remove weight from the muzzle and have a bit larger breech for safety with heavy loads.

Mills work the easiest on straight things like straight barrels. It is more complicated to set up a mill for a tapered barrel, though not hugely so. It is a lot more complicated to set one up and much more time consuming to mill a tapered and flared barrel.

Iron/Steel extrusion technology in the 19th century and deep hole drilling made it far cheaper to make straight barrels or those with some taper. So it was more the lower cost to make the barrels on why they switched to straight or tapered barrels.

Gus

 

[sportster73hp]

In the "Gunsmith of Williamsburg" DVD Wallace Gusler builds a long rifle from scratch as it would have been done circa 1770. He mentions the flared barrel he forged was typical for the period. (Don't think he used the term swamped.)

By the way, the DVD is excellent even though originally made in the 1960s. David Brinkley did the narration in that great cadence of his. The whole version is available on YouTube and is worth the hour to watch.

Jeff

Purchased this dvd in Williamsburg before discovering it on YouTube. Most any documentary film can be found there (YouTube) . Even found a custom 4x4 van built by a friend posted by someone else.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The forging result of the tapered and flared or swamped barrel was not so much of a manufacturing "flaw" as it was a manufacturing result. The smith forging the barrel was well aware of what was happening with the movement of the metal during forging. That smith understood that good balance and performance was the result of taper and flare and started the forging of the U with the intent to place the waist of the barrel where he wanted it to be. With care, the amount of taper could be minimized, but not really eliminated. But, as the barrel tube was welded up and more metal moved to be welded into the tube, the tube and mandrel needed to be placed in the slightly larger slots in the swage block. The changes were smoothed over using the "rubber" files to draw file the rough barrel tube before reaming and straightening. The taper and flare was much less on the forged barrels than the swamped barrels manufactured today.

 

[Artificer]

The forging result of the tapered and flared or swamped barrel was not so much of a manufacturing "flaw" as it was a manufacturing result. The smith forging the barrel was well aware of what was happening with the movement of the metal during forging. That smith understood that good balance and performance was the result of taper and flare and started the forging of the U with the intent to place the waist of the barrel where he wanted it to be. With care, the amount of taper could be minimized, but not really eliminated. But, as the barrel tube was welded up and more metal moved to be welded into the tube, the tube and mandrel needed to be placed in the slightly larger slots in the swage block. The changes were smoothed over using the "rubber" files to draw file the rough barrel tube before reaming and straightening. The taper and flare was much less on the forged barrels than the swamped barrels manufactured today.

As I understand it, some to perhaps many of the tapered and flared barrels available today came from measuring the tapers and flares on original barrels in different time periods and different makers?

Gus

 

[4575wcf]

I have an old separate car garage on the property, right now it is chock full of lumber odds and ends, but the plan eventually is to restore the building and set it up with the my forge, my anvil, my Barnes treadle lathe, get a post drill etc. etc. and start heating and beating. What would we do without our hobbies?

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Artificer, you are probably correct in that the tapered and flared modern barrels are based on dimensions of original barrels. Historically the tapered and flared barrel dimensions can vary quite a bit. I would want to use a modern tapered and flared barrel.

 

[45man]

I love a swamped barrel until it came time to inlet it. Took two weeks just for the barrel.

 

[4575wcf]

Smoke, press, tap, chisel repeat 1000 times. Good thing it is relaxing. The LC Smith has raised.my patience to new heights : ).

 

[rich pierce]

Some current swamped barrel offerings are based on originals from guns made 1760-1800. The “A weight” offerings are a modern adaptation of a swamped design to a very lightweight, small caliber rifle. Most small caliber barrels on originals weigh 5 pounds to 7 pounds, resulting in 8-11 pound guns.

 

[tenngun]

I wonder
Cannon were made with thick breeches and tapered to a little short of the muzzle. Then flared and had a thick ring at the muzzle
The blunderbuss and many small guns copied this design
Muskets tended to just tapper
I wonder if the flair in swamped barrels wasn’t an imitation of this design motif???

 

[plmeek]

Cannon maybe...blunderbuss I doubt. The bore of the blunderbuss flares out also such that the muzzle has a funnel shape. Totally unlike a rifle muzzle.

The flare and rings or bands at the muzzle of cannon could have aided in aiming like Rich Pierce mentioned in Post #19.

 

[4575wcf]

This thought has occurred to me also, that the swamped barrel was a continuation of what was already an accepted standard. How about the German Jaeger rifles that the Kentucky rifle derived from--were they swamped?