T/C Hawken

[Terry Keslar]

Hello, I would like to get some feed back and constructive criticism if needed. I've owned my T/C Hawkens 50 cal. for about 20 years now. I've always used a ball and patch in the past and never hunted with it. This year I decided life was getting to short and I needed to go hunting. I'm shooting a 320gr. Maxi-ball backed by 55 grains of Triple 7 powder (I'm going by weight, because I just could not measure volume close enough each time) & #11 caps. This load seems to be very accurate (Approx. 4" groups @ 80yards) and has very little recoil. I used it on antelope this year and with both animals at approx. 70 to 75 yards I had clean pass through shoots. I need to know if this seems like a proper set up? Should I be using more of less load and if any one knows if this load would be heavy enough for me to hunt elk with? Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[roundball]

I would not personally go hunting for Elk with a light load like that.

Yes, I know deer have been shot with a .22cal rifle...but that doesn't make a .22cal a good deer rifle.

For something as big and robust as an Elk compared to a pretty small animal like an Antelope, I'd personally not leave the house without a more robust load than what you mentioned.

 

[huntsman247]

I am with roundball, unless you want to chase a woulded elk halfway around the county it would be wise to up the charge. I imagine your current load would do the job, everything being perfect, but that is rarely the case in the elk woods. You say you measure your powder, your a patient man, actually you can measure by volume just as effectively if you do it the same each time, 2 or 3 grains difference either way isn't going to make a noticable difference in our choice of weaponry. Best of Luck!

 

[jerem0621]

I asked a very similar question about deer hunting with my TC New Englander a few weeks ago. Everybody suggested to me to shoot about 70 grains of powder for deer with prb. I would be careful with the triple 7 since it is ment to be measured by volume and not weight. I went to the Hodgdon website and they advise that triple 7 produces more energy when used with the same volume as black powder. Their site also advised in order to duplicate the black powder charge you must reduce the volume of triple7 by 10 grains. your 55 grain weight is not accurate since you are measuring by weight. I would recommend 70-90 grain of triple7 for your application measured by volume.

Of coures some may recommend good old fashion black powder. I have never used this and my percussion guns have only shot pyrodex since this is what I have on hand.

By the way how is ignition with triple7 in your Hawken? I know with pyrodex it is instant with the #11 percussion cap. I've though about buying some triple 7 when this goes on sale at walmart soon since season is almost over.

Thanks,

Jerem

 

[Mountainman56]

55 grains of 777 by weight may be a fairly substantial load as I believe it is lighter than black powder....I'm almost positive....I think. Someone help me out here.

I would keep playing with the load and try some different conicals as well if that's what your are going to shoot. I would think you should be able to get that rifle up to 70 or 80 grains (measured) and still have very good accuracy and manageable recoil.

 

[Terry Keslar]

Thanks for the input, the Triple7 seems to ignite good and with very little problem cleaning up.

 

[Terry Keslar]

I set my first measure up by volume for my load, then I weight out my compared load. So the time I take weighing my loads and putting them in my carriers actually saves me time and worry of messing up a load when it really counts. My 55 Gr. of weight is what comes out by comparing volume with black powder. And believe it or not my weight is 2 grs. over the suggested volume measure what T/C says I should be at for a full load. What do you think the standard *Black Powder* load should be for that gun? Maybe I just need to start over. :hmm:

 

[roundball]

Volumetric measures of 2F BP are the standard...ie: 100grn volume of BP weighs 100grns weight.

TC's load data charts list:

180grn PRB for the .50cal Hawken is 50-110grns of Goex 2F.

275-320grn maxi for the .50cal Hawken is 80-110grns Goex 2F.

 

[boar]

Your maxium load for .50 by TC manual is 100 grs 2ff. The most accurate is 90. I always used 100grs behind the max and 90 behind the max-hunter. This in a flint hawken got in the 80s. These guns were made for maxis, that is why they have .07 rifligs. I never shot a RB out of this gun. Killed 5 deer with it. Then went to the RB and used a CVA ST Louis Hawken. Killed 7 deer with it. Now using a Bobcat. My first gun was a TC .54 Hawken and I used 1110 grs 2ff with the Maxis. It like 45grs 2ff for RB. Used it on groundhogs. It would pump right thru a hog at 70yrds. My grandson has it now, bought it in 82. Dilly

 

[boar]

That was 110grs 2ff. Dilly

 

[John Taylor]

Thanks for clearing that up, I was thinking there was not enough room for the ball.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

from what I've read 777 is a little more powerful than BP. you might try an '06 caseful of it (this would be about 72 gr 3F BP) as a start. get an empty .300 Win. Mag case for next step up which I know will be plenty. I've been experimenting with REAL slugs in my .50, what a WHACK! and recoil to go w/it.

 

[ryoung14]

1elk, it sounds like you're saying that the 55 WEIGHED grains of 777 occupies about the same VOLUME as a max load of 2f BP (100gr. or thereabouts). If that's the case, you're load is plenty strong. As another has said, 777 is more powerful than BP or Pyrodex and the max load by VOLUME should probably be reduced a little.

I wouldn't be in any big hurry to put more 777 behind those Maxi's until this is cleared up. You may be at or above max load now! If I had some 777 on hand, I'd measure out 100gr. by volume and see what it weighs on the powder scale. If less than or equal to 55gr. weighed, I'd go no higher.
FWIW
Bob

 

[Rat Trapper]

This is what I found when I filled up my powder measure with Triple Seven 2f and check them on my powder scale:

By weight = by vol
37.0 grains = 50 grains (triple seven 2F)
45.0 grains = 60 grains
67.5 grains = 90 grains
75.0 grains = 100 grains
87.0 grains = 120 grains

For those who wish to weight out triple seven the practice can't hurt anything. Recently there was an article in Muzzle Blasts by the Bevel brothers regarding weighting out black powder and they found it helped. Since triple seven is hotter I'm guessing it may be even more important to weight out triple seven. However I have also shot some good (small) groups using my vol measure. So in the end, I'd just say either way will work. Just make sure you run the charge you wish to use through the vol measure and then weight that charge before you start weighting charges.

 

[Zonie]

Rat Trapper:
Thanks for the information.
The thing that I don't see mentioned is the Warning given by the Hodgdon Powder company that makes triple seven.
For those who missed it it says:

"Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as black powder. To duplicate a black powder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below."

With this in mind, your table probably should also include the black powder equivalent load:
By weight = by vol = black powder load
37.0 grains = 50 grains =58 grains BP
45.0 grains = 60 grains = 69 grains BP
67.5 grains = 90 grains = 103 grains BP
75.0 grains = 100 grains = 115 grains BP
87.0 grains = 120 grains = 138 grains BP

 

[Rat Trapper]

When I was working in the local gun shop, I had to call Knight and TC and ask questions regarding loads for customers. Knight's reply to Hogdon's warning, was it's just something their lawyers came up with to cover their A--! Both Knight and TC seem to have no problems using the same amout of Triple seven as they list as max with black powder. Other makers may tell you different. If you are going to use Triple Seven either take the time to contact your rifles maker or keep you charges reduced.

 

[Zonie]

I suppose Hodgdon might be covering their A$$ a bit but the warning they mentioned in the quote I posted above goes on to say:

"*WARNING - Failure to follow the recommendations for use of Triple Seven could result in injury and/or death to the shooter, or bystanders and damage to property."

Something about the word "death" that makes it kind of personal to me.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that muzzleloading rifles and pistols have a healthy safety margin built into their designs but I also know that some of the people who have tried 777 have said it really is more powerful than black powder.
With that in mind, I would go along with the idea that reducing the powder load 15 percent might be a good idea.

 

[zukeeper1]

I measure out 90 in my T/C 50 cal when I use maxi balls , I get good accuracy and good velocity / energy. Actually , my T/C seems to prefer 90 as far as accuracy goes.

 

[mykeal]

Zonie is right on the mark here. All it takes to prove it is some chronograph data. There's plenty on the net; Hodgdon's data is based on pressure measurements and backed up by chronograph tests. I'll look for some and publish it here if anyone really needs proof to believe the manufacturer of the product itself.

For myself, I have to reduce my 777 loads to between 85 and 90 percent of my Goex loads to get the same accuracy (measured by group size). This is with .490 rb/0.010 lubed patch in a .50 cal CVA Hawken, a .440 rb/0.010 lubed patch in a .45 cal CVA Kentucky rifle and 295 gr .50 cal Powerbelts in a Traditions Lightning.

 

[Terry Keslar]

Zonie thanks for the information, If I'm doing my math correct I'm right where I need to be by backing off the 15% (I did read the warning)So I will need to get it on the range this summer and clock some speed. Thanks again, 1elk