I am planning on building a tennessee poor boy flintlock rifle. 90% of the inletting will already be done on the stock, such as the lock,barrel, and trigger plate and guard.My concern is where or how do I determine where do I locate the placement for the tang screw into the tang and down to the trigger plate. The only information I have found is the tang screw is from 1/4 to 1/2 in front of the trigger.I also am looking to find where to locate the screw from the lock to the lock plate. I plan on only using one lock screw for the poor boy rifle.
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tang screw & lock bolt locations
- Thread starter srottman
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Since they are doing all of the inletting for you, they should also be able to furnish you a set of plans for the rifle you are building. Those plans will show the location of each part.
And I recommend to Anyone building their first rifle, buy "The Gunsmiths of Grenville County" builders book. There is a world of good info in there with detailed photos, etc.
:thumbsup:
And I recommend to Anyone building their first rifle, buy "The Gunsmiths of Grenville County" builders book. There is a world of good info in there with detailed photos, etc.
:thumbsup:
Birddog6 thanks for the reply,I am getting a set of general plans for building a poor boy rifle but the impression I am getting is the actual locations for the screws is my decision is up to me I did check that book out you mentioned plus others and I am still a little unsure of where to locate the screws so I dont put them where they should not be. hopefully when i get the plans they will be help ful
There is no "Set" location for them. It all depends on the tang design, length, angle, triggerplate location, etc. It is best to have the screw head parallel with the tang so it will sit down in the countersunk hole evenly. This sometimes dictates the screw location. If it is to much of an angle you will have problems drilling the hole into the triggerplate, or tapping it, or getting the tang screw in & out easily, etc.
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
Expanding a little on Birdog6's comment "It is best to have the screw head parallel with the tang..." here is what I have done.
Locating the trigger assembly into it's mortice, I mark a small line about 3/8 of an inch ahead of the front trigger on the bottom of the stock.
Using a small Tri-square I transfer this location to the side of the stock at the lowest point.
Using the same tri-square, resting on the tang of the barrel I slide it forward/backward keeping it parallel with the tang until the blade crosses the mark I made on the side. In this position I draw a line from the sides lower mark up to the top of the wrist and then transfer it across the top of the wrist to where it meets the tang.
This is about the best location by theory but sometimes it creates a location that is too close to the breech of the gun.
If this happens, I change the upper bolt location by moving it to the rear just a little until it looks like there is sufficient material to allow for the countersink of the screw head.
Once this balancing act is finished, I draw a dark line on the side of the gun and across the top of the wrist.
Measuring the width of the tang at this location with my dial calipers, I then re-set them to 1/2 that value and use them to lightly scribe a line in the middle of the tang.
I then scribe a line across the tang and center punch the place where these two lines meet.
This gives me the location for the tang screw.
I know. Clear as mud. :grin:
Locating the trigger assembly into it's mortice, I mark a small line about 3/8 of an inch ahead of the front trigger on the bottom of the stock.
Using a small Tri-square I transfer this location to the side of the stock at the lowest point.
Using the same tri-square, resting on the tang of the barrel I slide it forward/backward keeping it parallel with the tang until the blade crosses the mark I made on the side. In this position I draw a line from the sides lower mark up to the top of the wrist and then transfer it across the top of the wrist to where it meets the tang.
This is about the best location by theory but sometimes it creates a location that is too close to the breech of the gun.
If this happens, I change the upper bolt location by moving it to the rear just a little until it looks like there is sufficient material to allow for the countersink of the screw head.
Once this balancing act is finished, I draw a dark line on the side of the gun and across the top of the wrist.
Measuring the width of the tang at this location with my dial calipers, I then re-set them to 1/2 that value and use them to lightly scribe a line in the middle of the tang.
I then scribe a line across the tang and center punch the place where these two lines meet.
This gives me the location for the tang screw.
I know. Clear as mud. :grin:
ok I think I got that, Can you help me with locating the bolt from the lock plate over to the other side of the rifle, will most probally only use one bolt since its a poor boy. Can you give me any advised of what to avoid. thanks for your time
I mark where I want the bolt to go into the bolster& drill a small pilot hole.
Go to the other side & measure down the same distance from the top of the stock at that area & mark the hole down the same distance, then see if the sideplate is going to look correct to go there. At times you have to make a lil adjustment there.
Insure the bolt is goint 90 deg. across the stock so the head will be lay flat.
Make sure the bolt will not hit the end of the barrel, but rather thru the tang base.
I clamp the sideplate securely with 2 clamps to insure it doesn't move. Then I use a drillpoint jig I made & drill to the barrel & just mark it, then turn the jig around & drill the other way, all of this with about a 1/8" drill bit. It should be noted I have the barrel Pinned In Place in the stock & have a small clamp holding the breech down so I know the tang is where I want it to stay.
Now take the barrel out & drill the barrel with it out of the stock. Reason I do this is allot of time the barrel tang base is tapered, ans this will make the bit walk. Thus your hole ends up lower than needed. Take it out & drill it & you can control this walk easier. Then drill it about 1/16" larger than necessary for bolt clearance.
While you have the barrel out of the stock, drill the hole from the sideplate to the lock, 1/2 the way, then turn it over, drille the other way, again using the drill point & using the tap sized drill bit the tap calls for. Now tap the lock bolster running the tap THROUGH the sideplate into the bolster. Get that thru & then take the tap out. Now drill the size hole for bolt Clearance thru the sideplate up to the lock bolster & just barely touch it. Again, just a tad larger than necessary to clear the bolt. Now put the bolt in & try it, you usually have to cut them off as they are too long.
Go to the other side & measure down the same distance from the top of the stock at that area & mark the hole down the same distance, then see if the sideplate is going to look correct to go there. At times you have to make a lil adjustment there.
Insure the bolt is goint 90 deg. across the stock so the head will be lay flat.
Make sure the bolt will not hit the end of the barrel, but rather thru the tang base.
I clamp the sideplate securely with 2 clamps to insure it doesn't move. Then I use a drillpoint jig I made & drill to the barrel & just mark it, then turn the jig around & drill the other way, all of this with about a 1/8" drill bit. It should be noted I have the barrel Pinned In Place in the stock & have a small clamp holding the breech down so I know the tang is where I want it to stay.
Now take the barrel out & drill the barrel with it out of the stock. Reason I do this is allot of time the barrel tang base is tapered, ans this will make the bit walk. Thus your hole ends up lower than needed. Take it out & drill it & you can control this walk easier. Then drill it about 1/16" larger than necessary for bolt clearance.
While you have the barrel out of the stock, drill the hole from the sideplate to the lock, 1/2 the way, then turn it over, drille the other way, again using the drill point & using the tap sized drill bit the tap calls for. Now tap the lock bolster running the tap THROUGH the sideplate into the bolster. Get that thru & then take the tap out. Now drill the size hole for bolt Clearance thru the sideplate up to the lock bolster & just barely touch it. Again, just a tad larger than necessary to clear the bolt. Now put the bolt in & try it, you usually have to cut them off as they are too long.
Birddog6 THANKS again for your reply.One question. maybe I am trying to be to specific and to exact but can you give me some direction on how do you decide where your are going to but the scew hole at. can I look at my print[which i do not have yet] and use a general location. I am also planning a trip to freind ship this june where I am sure I can get some additional help. Again thanks for your time it is helpful to have folks on the forum to help the new guys out. by the way I made that drill jig yout refering to
I know that screwing the tang bolt into the trigger plate is supposed to be SOP, but the originals I have seen rarely have a through bolt. A vast majority of orignial longrifles have a woodscrew attaching the tang to the stock, and many don't have a screw attaching the trigger plate. The trigger plate is often held in place by nothing more than good inletting and the trigger guard.
That said, IMHO, we over think and over engineer when building these guns...and I am no exception. :v
srottman,
The location of the lock bolt is not critical, as long as it passes through the base of the tang. The base of the tang can be notched from the back if you locate the screw too far back. The only real criteria for locating the lock bolt is avoiding drilling your lock where the screw would interfere with the workings of the lock internals, or drilling through the barrel. That would be bad.
:shocked2:
Just run a center line from the center of the base of the tang to the top of the tang. Assemble the barrel and lock into the stock. Go back to the mark at the top of the tang and continue the line down your lock to mark the location of the hole on the lock. That location should coincide with the bolster. Drill with a pilot drill as Birdog says, and continue from there.
Be sure to drill the hole in the lockplate with a tap drill, not to full size. Drilling the hole full size won't allow room to cut threads for the lock bolt.
That said, IMHO, we over think and over engineer when building these guns...and I am no exception. :v
srottman,
The location of the lock bolt is not critical, as long as it passes through the base of the tang. The base of the tang can be notched from the back if you locate the screw too far back. The only real criteria for locating the lock bolt is avoiding drilling your lock where the screw would interfere with the workings of the lock internals, or drilling through the barrel. That would be bad.
:shocked2:
Just run a center line from the center of the base of the tang to the top of the tang. Assemble the barrel and lock into the stock. Go back to the mark at the top of the tang and continue the line down your lock to mark the location of the hole on the lock. That location should coincide with the bolster. Drill with a pilot drill as Birdog says, and continue from there.
Be sure to drill the hole in the lockplate with a tap drill, not to full size. Drilling the hole full size won't allow room to cut threads for the lock bolt.
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I just want to make sure that I understand this correctly as I am also building a Poor Boy and am a first time builder. The one lock bolt goes through the base of the tang itself which is at the rear end the breech plug? It is done this way to add strength? I am also facing the tang bolt situation as I posted earlier in "Separate Tang Screw"; but I am planning on drilling and tapping into the trigger plate, also to add strength.
Thanks
arkrivco
Thanks
arkrivco
It sounds like we are getting the tang screw[bolt] which runs from the tang to be tapped into the trigger plate confused with the location of the lock screw[bolt] which runs from the lock plate on one side of the rifle to be tapped into the lock. From the replys I beleave I under stand about where to put them now. There is no exact location
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Yea, that would be great. I might have ordered the same plans from TOW as I ordered the "Tennessee" rifle plans.
Thanks.
arkrivco
Thanks.
arkrivco
I'm not sure that this applies to all locks but most of the ones I've worked with actually have a very small area that is IMO suitable for the lock bolt.
I'm looking at a Siler Percussion lock from the inside towards the outside.
All along the top of the lock is the bolster which stands proud of the rest of the lock plate.
Measuring this bolster right ahead of the screw that holds the bridle in place it is about .250 thick (top to bottom).
This thickness increases as one moves foward towards the location for the drum.
On this particular lock I wanted the lock screw as far aft as possible to prevent interference with the rear of the barrel but far enough forward so that there would be sufficient material around the screw hole.
I located this screw hole about 3/16 of an inch forward of the bridle (or 3/8 of an inch forward of the bridle screws centerline).
I tried to balance the location of the hole in the up/down direction from the sides of the bolster so, as the bolster is .250 thick in this area, I located the hole about .125 above the lower edge.
Once this location is found, I, like Birdog6 then determine the effects of this location on the opposite side of the gun. If it will position the sideplate on the side opposite the lock in a good place (not too high) I consider my work half done.
Because of the need to assure adaquate material around the lock bolt hole I locate it first. Then with the lock clamped I mark and center punch the holes location and then drill it thru with the proper tap drill.
Assuming the sideplate location will work, after drilling the lock, I place the lock back into the stock and using the new hole as a drill bushing, I drill from the outside of the lock into and thru the stock towards the sideplate panel.
I have done this with the barrel in place, and with it removed. In either case, sooner or later your usually going to have to drill thru the thick base of the tang.
This doesn't add any strength to anything. It is just a matter of fact that the damn thing is always in the road and the bolt or screw is going to have to go thru it. By the way, occasionally the screw location will place the drill so it just nicks the breech plugs base. If this happens, don't try to drill it the rest of the way thru. The partial or interrupted cut will break the drill.
You can always go back and file out a clearance notch in the rear of the breech plugs tang base so for now, just remove the barrel and finish drilling the hole for the screw.
You should enlarge the hole thru the tang base so there is plenty of clearance for the screw later.
Remember, this is just the way I do it. There are a lot of ideas from other members that work just as well. Perhaps even better.
I'm looking at a Siler Percussion lock from the inside towards the outside.
All along the top of the lock is the bolster which stands proud of the rest of the lock plate.
Measuring this bolster right ahead of the screw that holds the bridle in place it is about .250 thick (top to bottom).
This thickness increases as one moves foward towards the location for the drum.
On this particular lock I wanted the lock screw as far aft as possible to prevent interference with the rear of the barrel but far enough forward so that there would be sufficient material around the screw hole.
I located this screw hole about 3/16 of an inch forward of the bridle (or 3/8 of an inch forward of the bridle screws centerline).
I tried to balance the location of the hole in the up/down direction from the sides of the bolster so, as the bolster is .250 thick in this area, I located the hole about .125 above the lower edge.
Once this location is found, I, like Birdog6 then determine the effects of this location on the opposite side of the gun. If it will position the sideplate on the side opposite the lock in a good place (not too high) I consider my work half done.
Because of the need to assure adaquate material around the lock bolt hole I locate it first. Then with the lock clamped I mark and center punch the holes location and then drill it thru with the proper tap drill.
Assuming the sideplate location will work, after drilling the lock, I place the lock back into the stock and using the new hole as a drill bushing, I drill from the outside of the lock into and thru the stock towards the sideplate panel.
I have done this with the barrel in place, and with it removed. In either case, sooner or later your usually going to have to drill thru the thick base of the tang.
This doesn't add any strength to anything. It is just a matter of fact that the damn thing is always in the road and the bolt or screw is going to have to go thru it. By the way, occasionally the screw location will place the drill so it just nicks the breech plugs base. If this happens, don't try to drill it the rest of the way thru. The partial or interrupted cut will break the drill.
You can always go back and file out a clearance notch in the rear of the breech plugs tang base so for now, just remove the barrel and finish drilling the hole for the screw.
You should enlarge the hole thru the tang base so there is plenty of clearance for the screw later.
Remember, this is just the way I do it. There are a lot of ideas from other members that work just as well. Perhaps even better.
arkrivco said:
Keep in mind these plans don't always go with the parts ya get. Sometimes stocks are precarved different & etc. Also sometimes you have to move the barrel back a tad to get the vent liner off the breechplug, so that should be noted as well.
I would look at the plans as a guideline, but not as a set rule that it has to be followed to a "T"...... Usually these drawings are someone else interpretation of how they think it should be, NOT a blueprint from an original rifle.
:hmm:
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Zonie and birddog. I am going about my kit using my lack of knowledge :rotf: and the Recreating the American Longrifle book. Also, the seller of the kit has helped me. I asked him the same question regarding the one lock bolt and he described what Zonie described, almost exactly.
My lock is a Siler flinter. Now, I've decided to put on a side plate(not with the original kit), so I will have to see if the bolt is long enough. If it is not long enough, I guess that I'll have to do some sanding.
In regards to the tang bolt, the kit only came with a tang screw. I ordered a tang bolt; but its stuck in the mail, at this point. So, I plan to drill for a tang bolt; but, put in the tang screw to get the barrel in the correct location for the lock bolt to go through the tang lug.
But, at this point, the inlet for the lock is not square against the barrel so I'll have to do some sanding. :yakyak:
Thanks for the help.
arkrivco
My lock is a Siler flinter. Now, I've decided to put on a side plate(not with the original kit), so I will have to see if the bolt is long enough. If it is not long enough, I guess that I'll have to do some sanding.
In regards to the tang bolt, the kit only came with a tang screw. I ordered a tang bolt; but its stuck in the mail, at this point. So, I plan to drill for a tang bolt; but, put in the tang screw to get the barrel in the correct location for the lock bolt to go through the tang lug.
But, at this point, the inlet for the lock is not square against the barrel so I'll have to do some sanding. :yakyak:
Thanks for the help.
arkrivco
paulvallandigham
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If the barrel is round, or tapered, you may have to file down the bolster to get the two surfaces to match up. otherwise, if the barrel is a straight sided octagon barrel, you may need to relieve some wood in the lock mortise using chisels. Sand paper is only used if very minor ( thousandths) adjustments need to be made. Even then, a sharp chisel or scraper will remove the wood more easily.
