Target shooting: customize or buy?

[zimmerstutzen]

check the rules of your local matches. Around here, they permit non-adjustable sights only for most matches. A few paper punching matches permit any open sight.

 

[George T.]

I agree that the majority of T/C barrels are good enough to be in the running at 50 yards or less. That is if you get the ball size and patch thickness figured out and the right powder charge for your rifle. Many times the cost of buying a custom barrel could be better spent buying components and more practice. I shoot a GPR in matches. After a lot of load development I have settled on a .495 ball and .018 ticking lubed with Moose Milk and CCI Magnum caps. We shoot a max of 50 yards and sitting and resting my left elbow I can shoot 50 yard groups under 2 inches.

I have never done that in a match. No barrel in the world will make up for my talent! :wink:

Geo. T.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Has anyone on here ever had their TC locks and triggers worked over to the level needed for match shooting?? Would this be an option rather than buying a after market lock/trigger? If so who does this kind of work?

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Morning Rat Trapper,

Unless your T-C action is a flint lock, do not be concerned about tuning your lock or trigger. The T-C percussion lock is just fine the way it is. It is a good idea to remove the lock after a long shooting session or after two to four short shooting sessions and give the insides a good cleaning with something like carborator cleaner. DO NOT DISASSEMBLE THE LOCK.

Richard Eames and Paul are absolutely correctin their comments about good barrels and mental preparation.

If there is any "secret" in achieving match level accuracy with the PRB., it is the barrel. There are many things I like about the T-C rifles (and a few dislikes, but the factory barrel is not one of them.

Green Mountain did more than make a cottage industrial with their replacement drop-in barrels I have yet to personally see one of those that were not match winners. I have fitted many a T-C with a standard GM bARREL. All of these were in calibers or barrel lengths that could not be had in a GM drop-in barrel.

I have several muzzle loading rifles with both GM and other fine custom barrels. The GM barrels shoot as good as the fine custom barrels.

As a matter of fact, my two main competiton rifles have GM barrels, and they do not take second place to any of my custom barrelled rifles or anybody else's custom barrel.

I used TOTW's Jim Bridger rifle to build a "platform rifle" The idea was to build a Cross-sticks/light bench rifle Max wt. 14 pounds) with interchangeable barrels of different calibers.

All of the barrels are GM 1-1/8" x 41" plus length in 40, 45, 50, 54, and 58 caliber. All are winners out to 100 yards. The 54 and 58 are good for the 200 yard bench matches and are better in the wind.

Now the 40 caliber takes the rifle over the 14 pound limit, but it is only used for "chuck gun" shooting at the usual range of 60 yards. With virtually no recoil. it is super fun to shoot.

The T-C make an adequate platform, with a GM barrel, that rig will hold its own with any custom gun.

And Richard, I have been missing you at Brady. Are you and your lovely wife going to make it this year?

My regards and good wishes to all,

John L. Hinnant

"God and Texas"

 

[FishDFly]

For those who do not know John, he speaks with great knowledge and he has more "50" patches than anyone I know.

We will be there.

Phoenix weather is much nicer in the winter than in Brady and there are a lot more aggs to shoot.

I shot substantially above my average this year.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

target shooting is a strange bird. The positively best gun will not make a poor shooter a winner.

The best shooters can win at 25 and 50 yards with smooth bore rifles.

As a shooter progresses and advances, most switch from production guns to customized production guns and then perhaps to full out custom. But as they practice they develop the muscles to hold the gun, the muscle control to hold and squeeze and breath control. Also the shooter develops the habits to keep loading procedures to absolute identical from shot to shot.

My favorite target gun is a cobbled together group of parts. A investarm unfinished splintered stock from a kit, a TC perc lock that was worked over by a black powder gunsmith, very fine sights I modified myself, an H&H barrel with a choked bore and reworked L&R set triggers. For where permitted, I have Lyman receiver sights for it. Without muscle control, consistent loading and practice the rifle counts for little.

And there is a difference between offhand and rest shooting. Target shooters only need a rifle that is more accurate than they are. For bench shooting that means generally that a good rifle is required. As said by several others, an accurate rifle is barrel, sights, lock and triggers, the wood, means nothing. (Ron Griffie had a habit of showing up with rough hewn thumb hole stocks painted metal flake green and other outlandish things. He shot straight under the worst of circumstances.)

Excellent shooting is the culmination of several fairly equal factors and the rifle is only one of those.
A TC perc lock will do for most beginners and intermediate shooters. A TC barrel will do admirably for most beginner offhand shooting. TC sights leave something to be desired for fine shooting. Consistent loading and muscle strength are the hobgoblins that hold beginners back.

Even those who do manual labor for a living may not have the right shoulder and upper body muscles developed for target shooting.

I was about as anti-jock as they come when I went off to college. On a whim I tried out for the rifle team and made it. When I realized the coach ended each practice with weight lifting and running three miles I complained bitterly. But as I became more fit, my scores improved dramatically. Now I run a small hobby farm, lifting bales of hay and buckets of water, sacks of grain, etc has kept the upper body strength pretty good. If you can hold the rifle offhand steady enough to see the front sight bounce slightly with each heart beat, then you are doing darn good. When I was in college, my heart beat at a rest was running right around 50. I could actually shoot between heart beats.

Even Harry Pope realized that muscle strength and fatigue hampered offhand match shooting. In his written letters, he made a few short references to trying to limit things that caused fatigue when offhand shooting.

Get out and shoot. First change the sights on the TC barrel and shoot until the barrel is holding you back. The get a drop in replacement barrel or have one made up. Study rifling and see what you want. A green mountain barrel is good for offhand shooting but sights are equally important. Not so good for bench rest.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Just realized, this is an old thread. But it is a good one. A lot of people can relate to the issues here.
My wife and I used to compete regularly at Friendship and other major club events. We could never afford the top grade custom target rifles we saw and envied others using.
So, I had made up what I call our 'Half Breed' target rifles. They have won many matches and have served us well for over 40 years.
Mine is a TC 'hawken', wifes is a TC Seneca. Both are fitted with .45 cal. Douglas premium barrels and Lyman Olympic peep sights on custom made mounts. Today, the sights are worth more than the rifles. And, recently I have been using the wifes rifle in competition because my torn up and aging shoulders can't hold up a heavier rifle anymore.
For the record: they are percussion and nothing has even been done to modify either the triggers or locks. They are just kept clean and lubricated.

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[gunner69skmc]

Congradulations on your "Innovate, Adapt, and Overcome" modifications. Those are both nice rifles......

 

[Rat Trapper]

All replys are greatly appreciated. It seems a lot of people are interested in accurate rifles and wonder if their equipment is good enough to go to matches. It seems not enough info is printed about what a person needs to go to a match. So thanks again to all who answered the question.

 

[FishDFly]

All replys are greatly appreciated. It seems a lot of people are interested in accurate rifles and wonder if their equipment is good enough to go to matches. It seems not enough info is printed about what a person needs to go to a match. So thanks again to all who answered the question.

A person should attend a match where they want to shoot, to watch and learn, prior to going to actually shoot. By attending a match to watch will let you see if you fit in with the group or not. Attending a match to observe will help with the next item.

Have a list of everything that you need to take with you. Forgetting needed essentials can be embarrassing. Check everything off going to the match and coming home.

A person needs to know what the rules are for the match and local protocols used during the match and safety rules that are followed. If they have a printed copy of the rules, get one and study what is expected of you and your equipment.

Have a backup plan for unexpected problems, (written or in your head), i.e., lock fails to work, do you have a spare lock or spare rifle or a flint breaks, do have a spare, where is it and a screw driver to change it.


Wear foam plugs for hearing protection and a pair of muffs as well. The muffs help reduce the endless chatter of some folks.

Only have positive thoughts while shooting.

Do not worry about how well someone else is shooting. You are there to shoot better than one other person and that is yourself. Your goal is to shoot better than you did last time.

 

[ihuntsnook]

For anyone looking to compete, I would recommend Dutch Shoultz's accuracy system. It's inexpensive and it works.

 

[Billnpatti]

T/C rifles are darned good rifles. Not as good as a well made custom rifle but good enough to win a lot of matches before moving up to a custom rifle. If your T/C is in good condition with a good bore, use it to develop your skills before moving up to a custom rifle. Learn to shoot what you've got first. If you are like most of us, it is probably a better rifle than you are a shooter anyway. Buy a copy of Dutch Schults' Muzzleloading Accuracy System. Read it many times, do what he says, and you will develop the maximum accuracy from your rifle and yourself. Once you are capable of shooting better than the rifle is capable of, it is time to move up to a custom gun. At that time, I recommend a good .40 caliber for the type of shooting that you are doing. At distances out to at least 50, maybe even 100 yards, you just can't beat the inherent accuracy of a .40 caliber.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Well it sounds like I am part the way towards what I need. I have a 40 caliber GM barrel on one of my TC rifles, and I have Dutch's system. My old eyes see better with the peep sight and I have the Lyman peep and front globe. The nice thing about the Lyman rear sight is I can pop it off and screw on a open rear if I have to. In my younger days I was a NRA 3 gun pistol shooter and still shoot some NRA high power matches, so I understand the need for taking all the stuff you need to the match. I have found all the post in this thread useful, thanks.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I noticed one person posted about using a TC Condender rear sight with a Lyman globe front. Would this be ok at most matches? I can see the advantage of this as I could just pop the Lyman peep off and put the open rear on. Also I could adjust to the size of front sight with the globe to fit what I can see best. While I have not tried it yet, I'd also guess the Contender rear sight blade would be a good replacement for the TC Hawken rear sight blade?? The Contender rear sights I have only allow one screw hole to line up unless I have another hole drilled and tapped. I'd guess a guy could get by with just one screw?

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Mothers Day Morning Rat Trapper,

The type of sights used will depend on the rules of the match. For example, at our TMLRA shots there a number of state championship events consisting of three, four, or five targets to be shot in event. These are called an aggregate.

With the targets inside each aggregate, the rules will state what type of sight is allowed for that particular target.

So, go prepared to shoot both types of sight.

However, with said, I must tell you about a shooter that I met at the 1983 NMLRA Championships: Mr.John L. Hargis. Mr. Hargis was a force to be contended with in every round ball event, yet his one(and only one rifle) looked like one of those that you keep hidden in a closet out of embarrassment.

The stock was a Civil War musket type fitted with a good H & H barrel and a tuned Siler lock. Sights were primitive open sights that had to be filed and drifted to zero. Depending on "conditions", after a few practice targets, he held over, under, right or left to be in the X-Ring. And I do mean in the X-Ring, not just the 9 or 10 ring.

One afternoon, a friend and I watched Mr. Hargis shoot 25 yard offhand practice targets for about an hour. Finally, Mike turned to me and said, "Do you think he ever gets tired of shooting 10's and X's?"His pratice target was the NMLRA 6-Bull target which has 10 Ring about 1/2" in diameter, and the X-Ring is a pencil lead size dot.

Your equipment is good for shooting and winning. The rest is up to you. Richard and others have posted good advice for you.

I need to go for now, but will post again about an acurracy problem concerning the placement of "peep sights" on hook breech and tang rifles.The solution is simple and easy to do.

My respects to All,

John L. Hinnant

"God and Texas"

 

[Rat Trapper]

John,
Greatly appreciate the info. When I had my gunsmith install the Lyman 57's I had asked him to make sure the sight was tracking straight up and down with no lean left or right. I was told that had been done.

I am looking forward to more of your posts on this subject. I am sure it has been of great interest to all of us. Thank you.

 

[Rifleman1776]

John Hargis was a familiar face at major events for many years. He seemed to be obsessed with shooting and winning. Many times he was challenged for (possible) illegal sights and equipment. (note: "challenged", I do not know that he ever cheated)
I don't know if he is still around and competing.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Morning Rifleman,

Mr. Hargis was challenged many times, but as far as I know, none of the top ranked shooters challenged him. They all seem to respect his ability to shoot, particularly with that decreipt, junky looking rifle he used. And he used it in all events

I was witness to one of the challenges thrown his way.

He was shooting in an event that required the rifle to have provisions for carring a ramrod. He had a ramrod stuck in his old musket stock and held in place with a piece of tape. That did not satisfy some of the "purist" from the primitive camp. Now keep in mind that the spectators from the primitive camp were not participating in this event.However, that did not keep them from challenging his rifle because it did not have "proper thimbles".

I know this to be 100% correct, because I just happen to be sitting on a bench behind the firing line within arms length of this group of five stalwarts. I heard every word of their conversation and watched them scurry off to file their challenge.

Later in the day. I saw Mr. Hargis sitting in the cafeteria with his trusty rifle carving out a notch in the ramrod groove for a thimble. He then proceeded to use duct tape around barrel and all to fasten the thimble to his rifle. As he told me about the challenge, I said,

"J.L., you will probably be challenged on using that tape."

He sighed and said, "You are probably right."

I asked him to not leave, I had an idea and would be right back. I went over to Traders Row, picked up a piece of leather thong, returned to J.L., and said,

"Here, use this."

He kind of grinned and said, "Yeah", and then went back to the firing line and continued to win.
He did tell me the next day that his method of attaching his thimble and the fact that he used only one was challenged.

The challenge was denied almost immedately.

Mr. Hargis and I were never friends. Our association lasted only that brief week or so in 1983 at Friendship. We swapped a number of stories and enjoyed each others company, along with others, for that short time.

He did tell me that he had a love of shooting and would shoot very often by himself just for pleasure, and only practiced offhand. He shoot so much that he had to replace his barrel about every three years.

Now I shoot a lot, but that amount of shooting with a muzzleloading rifle staggers my imagination.

Yes I know of the many challenges hurled at Mr. Hargis, and I personally suspect that the vast majority of them originated with second and third level tier shooters who could not stand being beaten by a man shooting the ugliest flintlock rifle in the world.

I watched the man shoot, and Gentlemen, the man was a shooter!

My Respects to All,

John L. Hinnant

"God and Texas"

 

[Dean2]

John

I never knew the gent, nor had I heard of him before this, but that is one cool post you made. Very interesting how talent is often assailled and accused. Glad he just kept on shooting and winning.

 

[FishDFly]

I noticed one person posted about using a TC Condender rear sight with a Lyman globe front. Would this be ok at most matches? I can see the advantage of this as I could just pop the Lyman peep off and put the open rear on. Also I could adjust to the size of front sight with the globe to fit what I can see best. While I have not tried it yet, I'd also guess the Contender rear sight blade would be a good replacement for the TC Hawken rear sight blade?? The Contender rear sights I have only allow one screw hole to line up unless I have another hole drilled and tapped. I'd guess a guy could get by with just one screw?

Nearly all the matches I shoot allow adjustable rear sights.


I use the narrow post on the Lyman globe as it lets the most light in. All of my T/C Hawken and Renegades have Contender rear sights and either Lyman Globe and the old style T/C Hawken/Renegade front sight.


The rear T/C Contender rear sights and T/C Contender rear silhouette sight have the same screw pattern and screws as T/C Hawken and Renegade sights. All parts are interchangeable with one exception.

The T/C Contender silhouette rear sight has a curved base and it needs to be milled flat to go on an octagon barrel.

The Contender rears come in different heights depending on the caliber of the Contender barrel the sight came off. You have to buy the correct Globe.

I like the Silhouette as the height adjustment is numbered with slash marks between the numbers, just dial in the number for the yardage you have it sighted in for. No reason to change your powder charge for whatever yardage you are shooting.

My silhouette sight is old style and if you can find one they run about $200 or more. Not sure if the new sight will fit or not, might be worth a try.