Taylor Uberti better than Uberti?

[cripes7]

I am looking for a Uberti 1851 London Navy. Are the Taylor Ubertis worth the extra $60 to $70? Midway has Uberti London for $350, Taylor site they are $419.

 

[GYJ]

No, they are all the same. They're always going to cost more from an importer like Taylor's or Cimarron than from a dealer. MSRP vs actual retail.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Taylor's and Cimarron offer Uberti revolvers that are nicer in fit and finish than others. They cost a bit more but they really are nicer.

 

[GYJ]

Taylor's and Cimarron offer Uberti revolvers that are nicer in fit and finish than others. They cost a bit more but they really are nicer.

That's a myth. It was true 40yrs ago but hasn't been for at least 20yrs. Mike Harvey himself admitted to this on another forum.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Purely my personal observation. I have seen the guns from Taylor's and purchased several from Cimarron, and all are nicer than others I've seen. Not quoting anyone or passing along myths just my personal observations.

 

[maillemaker]

Mike Harvey himself admitted to this on another forum

Who is Mike Harvey, and do we have a link to what was said?

I have suspected for some time that some of the importers must be paying for higher quality runs than others, and this might explain why some importers are able to sell at such bargain prices. I bought a Spiller and Burr from MidwayUSA, and the barrel was over-screwed into the frame so that the top barrel flat was not horizontal (and as such the front sight post was cocked off at an angle). It was simple enough to slightly unthread the barrel to fix, but it got me to thinking about the price differences between vendors.

Likewise I bought a Uberti Walker some years ago (2014), probably from Cabela's or MidwayUSA (can't remember), and I had to file the front sight post over at a huge angle to hit point of aim:

 

[GYJ]

Mike Harvey is the founder of Cimarron and the person responsible for Uberti upping their game in the `80's.

I've got two dozen Uberti guns from every importer in business. There is no difference. Gun writers have gone into detail with the manufacturer and the importers and concluded the same thing. Any difference observed is going to boil down to variations between individual guns or batches of guns. Some of my nicest Uberti's have come from Dixie Gun Works.

This is a myth, rooted in truth. In the 1980's, Cimarron was paying an addition $30 per gun for better fit and finish work. They used this fact in their marketing. Sometime later, Uberti incorporated those changes into all of their guns. As I said, the 'myth' hasn't been true for at least 20yrs or more. At this point it's all just wishful thinking.

In fact, the only Uberti guns I have had issues with are Cimarrons. One was replaced outright by Cimarron, with one nearly as rough as the first. The other is just going to be kept for collection purposes.

Midway and Cabela's are retailers, not importers. Those guns are probably imported by Stoeger, Uberti's "house brand" importer. Why would they sell inferior guns under their own banner?

 

[Stantheman86]

Who is Mike Harvey, and do we have a link to what was said?

I have suspected for some time that some of the importers must be paying for higher quality runs than others, and this might explain why some importers are able to sell at such bargain prices. I bought a Spiller and Burr from MidwayUSA, and the barrel was over-screwed into the frame so that the top barrel flat was not horizontal (and as such the front sight post was cocked off at an angle). It was simple enough to slightly unthread the barrel to fix, but it got me to thinking about the price differences between vendors.

Likewise I bought a Uberti Walker some years ago (2014), probably from Cabela's or MidwayUSA (can't remember), and I had to file the front sight post over at a huge angle to hit point of aim:

View attachment 170714

I firmly believe Midway sells "factory seconds" that are fully functional but are a little "off" as evidenced by the 5 guns I've bought from Midway this month. They were all a lot less $ than other sources

Midway also sells "factory blem" guns

Myth or not I still believe Cimarron rejects guns that other sellers accept or don't even check , so Uberti makes sure they send the "cream of the crop" to Cimarron

My Cimarron Walker is finished much better than the 2 I got from Sportsman's Guide, it is plainly apparent. Functionally they are the same.

If I were a "casual" shooter and not open minded , and willing to tinker I'd have been disappointed by 4 of the 5 guns I just got. My Dance brothers is perfect though, except for a jiggly loading lever and the apparent use of an 1860 frame

 

[maillemaker]

Mike Harvey is the founder of Cimarron and the person responsible for Uberti upping their game in the `80's.

I've got two dozen Uberti guns from every importer in business. There is no difference. Gun writers have gone into detail with the manufacturer and the importers and concluded the same thing. Any difference observed is going to boil down to variations between individual guns or batches of guns. Some of my nicest Uberti's have come from Dixie Gun Works.

This is a myth, rooted in truth. In the 1980's, Cimarron was paying an addition $30 per gun for better fit and finish work. They used this fact in their marketing. Sometime later, Uberti incorporated those changes into all of their guns. As I said, the 'myth' hasn't been true for at least 20yrs or more. At this point it's all just wishful thinking.

In fact, the only Uberti guns I have had issues with are Cimarrons. One was replaced outright by Cimarron, with one nearly as rough as the first. The other is just going to be kept for collection purposes.

Midway and Cabela's are retailers, not importers. Those guns are probably imported by Stoeger, Uberti's "house brand" importer. Why would they sell inferior guns under their own banner?

Great info, thanks.

Why would they sell inferior guns under their own banner?

I don't know. I've tried to make sense of it for years (I've been shooting BP for 10 years now). You get such hit-or-miss quality reviews from people buying even new-production guns. I figured maybe it had something to do with who is importing/selling the guns. Maybe some people were paying for better quality than others.

Midway's prices are often substantially cheaper than other places for the same gun. Initially I figured it was just economies of scale. Then I began to wonder about the above.

Thanks again for the info.

 

[bang]

Never bought one from Taylor's or Cimarron. No unusual issues form any of them.
Only one I had to do a bit of work on is an older ASM Walker.
If your open top has windage issues fix it correctly. Shaving the front sight is not it. Tapper the barrel assembly mating surface to pull it over. And with any open top check the arbor fit first.

 

[maillemaker]

If your open top has windage issues fix it correctly. Shaving the front sight is not it. Tapper the barrel assembly mating surface to pull it over. And with any open top check the arbor fit first.

Re-shaping the mating surface between the barrel and frame is beyond my ability. So I just shaved the front site.

 

[Stantheman86]

Also keep in mind, that blackpowder revolvers are a different animal in the gun world and the Italian gunmakers have a different mindset than American manufacturers.

These aren't "firearms " legally in many countries and aren't legally held to any SAAMI or other spec like the cartridge guns from the same manufacturers. So they absolutely can send Second Quality guns or ones that pass QC and function and fire , but are still somewhat wonky to places that pay less for them like Bud K or Midway. They know most buyers view them as toys or range blasters , and won't know or care about timing or arbors as long as they go bang. People who go to Cimarron or Taylor's are obviously looking for a specific gun to shoot for CAS or to actually use. Not a guy at Cabelas who buys a $210 Brasser that looked cool while he was looking for RealTree overalls and will probably put 20 rounds through, ever.

If you've ever emailed Piettas customer service, it's definitely an adventure, I wish I could pull up old emails from 2007 or so when I asked the Pietta CS guy why my wedge slot peened after a day of shooting, and he basically told me they don't heat treat barrels and they don't have to, and I should have been more careful

......or dealt with any Italian manufacturer i.e. my friend who was trying to get Ducati parts from Ducati. They 100% told him that they're on summer break and they get around to making what they make, when they get to it and he has to wait.

The Italians are a proud people and they don't kiss customers butts. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Blackpowder Italian guns are and always will be a dice roll unless you can inspect them hands on before buying and cherry pick like Dr Nemeth and his colleagues who look through a bunch of Uberti Walkers to find a nice , in spec one to use for Match shooting. Plus they have a big in with Pedersoli and probably the other gunmakers

MidWay has a no return policy and I'm fully aware of that, there's probably a reason for it . But I saved a few 100 bucks buying guns I wanted vs buying elsewhere and I'm happy with what I got given my expectations.

 

[GYJ]

You really can't read too much into singular examples. The 1862 Pocket Police I just got from Midway two weeks ago is one of the nicest I've seen.

Cimarron can't reject guns that get sent to other importers. They already have Cimarron's import marks on them. They're all the same. Think about it from a manufacturing standpoint. Does it make sense to have varying tiers of quality in the same exact product? Or does it make more sense to make them all the same?

The only true difference is that some importers order certain models, configurations or chamberings that others do not.

 

[Stantheman86]

You really can't read too much into singular examples. The 1862 Pocket Police I just got from Midway two weeks ago is one of the nicest I've seen.

Cimarron can't reject guns that get sent to other importers. They already have Cimarron's import marks on them. They're all the same. Think about it from a manufacturing standpoint. Does it make sense to have varying tiers of quality in the same exact product? Or does it make more sense to make them all the same?

The only true difference is that some importers order certain models, configurations or chamberings that others do not.

You're right, it would be hard to sift out the "bottom of the crop" to certain wholesale buyers

Dixie charges more but they take returns, and will repair or replace a gun. Some of the reviews show people returning guns because the action wasn't smooth, and Dixie just sent them a new one that they inspected first.

The "these are basically finished kit guns " thing may be true in some cases, and some of them just happen to arrive perfect and some need work

 

[SPQR70AD]

Also keep in mind, that blackpowder revolvers are a different animal in the gun world and the Italian gunmakers have a different mindset than American manufacturers.

These aren't "firearms " legally in many countries and aren't legally held to any SAAMI or other spec like the cartridge guns from the same manufacturers. So they absolutely can send Second Quality guns or ones that pass QC and function and fire , but are still somewhat wonky to places that pay less for them like Bud K or Midway. They know most buyers view them as toys or range blasters , and won't know or care about timing or arbors as long as they go bang. People who go to Cimarron or Taylor's are obviously looking for a specific gun to shoot for CAS or to actually use. Not a guy at Cabelas who buys a $210 Brasser that looked cool while he was looking for RealTree overalls and will probably put 20 rounds through, ever.

If you've ever emailed Piettas customer service, it's definitely an adventure, I wish I could pull up old emails from 2007 or so when I asked the Pietta CS guy why my wedge slot peened after a day of shooting, and he basically told me they don't heat treat barrels and they don't have to, and I should have been more careful

......or dealt with any Italian manufacturer i.e. my friend who was trying to get Ducati parts from Ducati. They 100% told him that they're on summer break and they get around to making what they make, when they get to it and he has to wait.

The Italians are a proud people and they don't kiss customers butts. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Blackpowder Italian guns are and always will be a dice roll unless you can inspect them hands on before buying and cherry pick like Dr Nemeth and his colleagues who look through a bunch of Uberti Walkers to find a nice , in spec one to use for Match shooting. Plus they have a big in with Pedersoli and probably the other gunmakers

MidWay has a no return policy and I'm fully aware of that, there's probably a reason for it . But I saved a few 100 bucks buying guns I wanted vs buying elsewhere and I'm happy with what I got given my expectations.

Italian manufacturers do have a different mindset then the US does where they make a beautiful functional pistol for 240-$350 and a company like Colt makes the same piece for 1000-1500 with parts from Italy and even the Colts have some problems

 

[Stantheman86]

Italian manufacturers do have a different mindset then the US does where they make a beautiful functional pistol for 240-$350 and a company like Colt makes the same piece for 1000-1500 with parts from Italy and even the Colts have some problems

The value of the C series 2nd Gen Colts is purely from their limited production, the Colt name on them and the fact that they were assembled by the magical Colt elves inside the factory

F series guns are in my opinion nothing really beyond a Uberti with Colt stamps.

The Italian manufacturers can make these cheap because they use mild steel and relatively inexpensive to fit internals , fake case color and even Pietta uses a blued hammer now instead of fake color case but they are still a bargain in my opinion . I did have 2 cams go soft on Piettas but no manufacturer is without lemons. I bought a $1200 S&W that was non functional brand new out of the box

The customer is the final QC for most manufacturers these days.

The Uberti cartridge conversions like the Man with no Name .38 Navy is a $550 or so gun because of the better steels required to meet SAAMI specs and some of their 1873s cost more than a Ruger.

 

[maillemaker]

Does it make sense to have varying tiers of quality in the same exact product? Or does it make more sense to make them all the same?

Well, yes, it easily could make sense to have varying tiers of quality. I'm not saying this is what is happening, but it is certainly possible to make the same base product, but put increased effort into fitting during assembly for those who are willing to pay for it.

Or, you could have parts that don't pass QC but you decide you want to use them up so you toss them together and sell them at a discount.

Here is a "for example". Now, as you noted, you really can't draw any conclusions from singular examples. But here is one. Here is an 1851 brass-framed Navy in .44 caliber. It is the first black powder revolver I ever bought, back when I didn't know anything about BP. It was in one of those plastic blister starter packs I found on the shelf at Walmart. I bought this probably around 2000 or so. I have since sold it so I can't check the date code.

Watch the video here of the revolving of the cylinder as seen through a bore-scope. Notice the "crescent moon" shape visible around the chamber mouth. This is because of poor timing of the lock up of the chambers with respect to the barrel bore.



Now, if I was a manufacturer, and I had some guns that were functional "enough" and safe enough, but not quite up to snuff quality-wise, rather than scrap them, one "out" would be to dump these in blister starter packs on the shelf at Walmart. Most of the people buying them won't know up from down and if they shoot it more than twice it will probably be a rarity.

Here's another possible example. I've got a Pietta Smith Carbine with a 2019 barrel but a 2015-dated receiver. I bought it used, and discovered that there was a drill bit broken off in the receiver from where they had attempted to drill the fire horizontal fire channel (through the cleanout screw hole). I am certain this left the factory this way. They were able to drill around it so that the gun functioned.

My speculation is that this part probably got dumped in a "seconds" bin, and then got used up at a later date, perhaps when they were pressed for parts or something. Or I could be completely wrong and maybe they have huge date discrepancies between barrels and receivers all the time - again hard to draw any solid conclusions from a sample of one.

So again, I have no evidence to say this is going on, and given the previous post about the guy who owns Taylor's maybe this doesn't happen.

But it could be easily possible to build a base-quality product that you sell as your bottom-tier product for cheap, and then for those customers who want to pay extra for higher quality, you hand-select the best guns from the bin, or you put more effort into final assembly.

The CMP does this today. You want hand-picked stuff you pay a premium for it.

 

[Stantheman86]

Well, yes, it easily could make sense to have varying tiers of quality. I'm not saying this is what is happening, but it is certainly possible to make the same base product, but put increased effort into fitting during assembly for those who are willing to pay for it.

Or, you could have parts that don't pass QC but you decide you want to use them up so you toss them together and sell them at a discount.

Here is a "for example". Now, as you noted, you really can't draw any conclusions from singular examples. But here is one. Here is an 1851 brass-framed Navy in .44 caliber. It is the first black powder revolver I ever bought, back when I didn't know anything about BP. It was in one of those plastic blister starter packs I found on the shelf at Walmart. I bought this probably around 2000 or so. I have since sold it so I can't check the date code.

Watch the video here of the revolving of the cylinder as seen through a bore-scope. Notice the "crescent moon" shape visible around the chamber mouth. This is because of poor timing of the lock up of the chambers with respect to the barrel bore.



Now, if I was a manufacturer, and I had some guns that were functional "enough" and safe enough, but not quite up to snuff quality-wise, rather than scrap them, one "out" would be to dump these in blister starter packs on the shelf at Walmart. Most of the people buying them won't know up from down and if they shoot it more than twice it will probably be a rarity.

Here's another possible example. I've got a Pietta Smith Carbine with a 2019 barrel but a 2015-dated receiver. I bought it used, and discovered that there was a drill bit broken off in the receiver from where they had attempted to drill the fire horizontal fire channel (through the cleanout screw hole). I am certain this left the factory this way. They were able to drill around it so that the gun functioned.

My speculation is that this part probably got dumped in a "seconds" bin, and then got used up at a later date, perhaps when they were pressed for parts or something. Or I could be completely wrong and maybe they have huge date discrepancies between barrels and receivers all the time - again hard to draw any solid conclusions from a sample of one.

So again, I have no evidence to say this is going on, and given the previous post about the guy who owns Taylor's maybe this doesn't happen.

But it could be easily possible to build a base-quality product that you sell as your bottom-tier product for cheap, and then for those customers who want to pay extra for higher quality, you hand-select the best guns from the bin, or you put more effort into final assembly.

The CMP does this today. You want hand-picked stuff you pay a premium for it.

This is actually a perfectly clear and spot on idea

There have been good viewpoints on both sides, plus for example, MidWay is in no way inspecting these guns. All of mine are in the factory plastic bag with oil all over them, rubber banded up. MidWay is not paying employees to function test and inspect thousands of cap and ball revolvers plus paying people who know what to look for would be expensive.

The average buyer of a Pietta brasser is rarely going to shoot it, and Pietta knows this. Some of us do, I love a good Brasser but I remember these things when they were 79 bucks at Gander Mountain circa 2001 or so, and people bought them as woods blasters and to let kids run around snapping caps on them. There's probably tens of thousands of them quietly rusting away wrapped in old t-shirts in basements and garages across America. They're still 220 bucks, most buyers want to stuff it full of Pyrodex and if it goes Boom, life is good. They will still function safely with the chamber out of alignment. I'm sure half of my Piettas are like that.

Part of that theory makes my head sad, picturing a hard working Dad buying a blister pack .44 Navy to teach his son about Civil War Guns and dude gets a lemon that has an action that's like 20 miles of bad road, shoots 2 feet left and binds up after 3 shots because the hand isn't fitted right. But that's just Capitalism. Pietta sells the Grade C guns to people who probably won't care.

If the retailer has a return policy like Dixie, I assume they ship returned , defective guns back to Pietta for "credit" or for new guns. So Pietta doesn't want containers full of returns, so they make sure Dixie gets mostly good guns. The reviews show some lemons but they probably put some guns with sketchy QC in there too.

Or we are all wrong and Pietta and Uberti just make guns with varying levels of fitting, some good, some by the new guy, some were fitted at 4pm on a Friday, some by an older guy who makes more $$ and tries harder, and you get what you get.

The "cleanup" gun theory is solid, they go through the parts that got messed up and just use them, and blend them in with other guns if they need a few more guns to fill an order.

It's apparently a myth that Cimarron gets a "better" gun, they do have their name stamped on them so you'd think they wouldn't want turds with their brand on it but again, who knows. There are reports of bad Colt 2nd Gens too so you just never know.

 

[45D]

There are reports of bad Colt 2nd Gens too so you just never know.

That would be pretty much all of them!!

Mike

 

[GYJ]

Well, yes, it easily could make sense to have varying tiers of quality. I'm not saying this is what is happening, but it is certainly possible to make the same base product, but put increased effort into fitting during assembly for those who are willing to pay for it.

Or, you could have parts that don't pass QC but you decide you want to use them up so you toss them together and sell them at a discount.

Here is a "for example". Now, as you noted, you really can't draw any conclusions from singular examples. But here is one. Here is an 1851 brass-framed Navy in .44 caliber. It is the first black powder revolver I ever bought, back when I didn't know anything about BP. It was in one of those plastic blister starter packs I found on the shelf at Walmart. I bought this probably around 2000 or so. I have since sold it so I can't check the date code.

Watch the video here of the revolving of the cylinder as seen through a bore-scope. Notice the "crescent moon" shape visible around the chamber mouth. This is because of poor timing of the lock up of the chambers with respect to the barrel bore.



Now, if I was a manufacturer, and I had some guns that were functional "enough" and safe enough, but not quite up to snuff quality-wise, rather than scrap them, one "out" would be to dump these in blister starter packs on the shelf at Walmart. Most of the people buying them won't know up from down and if they shoot it more than twice it will probably be a rarity.

Here's another possible example. I've got a Pietta Smith Carbine with a 2019 barrel but a 2015-dated receiver. I bought it used, and discovered that there was a drill bit broken off in the receiver from where they had attempted to drill the fire horizontal fire channel (through the cleanout screw hole). I am certain this left the factory this way. They were able to drill around it so that the gun functioned.

My speculation is that this part probably got dumped in a "seconds" bin, and then got used up at a later date, perhaps when they were pressed for parts or something. Or I could be completely wrong and maybe they have huge date discrepancies between barrels and receivers all the time - again hard to draw any solid conclusions from a sample of one.

So again, I have no evidence to say this is going on, and given the previous post about the guy who owns Taylor's maybe this doesn't happen.

But it could be easily possible to build a base-quality product that you sell as your bottom-tier product for cheap, and then for those customers who want to pay extra for higher quality, you hand-select the best guns from the bin, or you put more effort into final assembly.

The CMP does this today. You want hand-picked stuff you pay a premium for it.

The problem with that is that by the time the guns are made, they're already stamped with the importer's markings. It's not like their QC staff can go over a finished gun and say, "this one's not quite up to snuff, let's send it to our house brand Stoeger instead of Cimarron".

The CMP is just grading existing guns with no care for how they're marked. Big difference.