Ten degrees off

[Bountyhunter]

I picked up an older unbuilt Santa Fe kit, and I discovered a problem. I have the barrel sitting down in the stock channel, but the tang wont settle in straight. So I get to squintin real tight and I notice that the breechplug is not lined up square with the flats. It is about 10 degrees off.

The obvious thing that comes to mind is, twist it out and file the face of the barrel a bit and then twist it back in square. Seems simple but I cannot budge that plug. Another shooter has suggested that it may have anaerobic on it and need to be heated. I have put heat to it until I'm beginning to become nervous.

Here's the questions for the pros...just how hot do you think i can take it, and how the heck do I tell when it gets that temperature? The lug on the breech isnt hookin up square with the hole in the tang,or if I glue them together, then, the tang wont lay down square in the inlet. Other'n that, its plum good....

Bill

 

[Old40Rod]

So I get to squintin real tight and I notice that the breechplug is not lined up square with the flats. It is about 10 degrees off.

If your breechplug doesn't line up flush with the barrel, you have to deal with that problem first. The tang mating up to the hook is another issue. The plug must be properly installed as a safety issue.

 

[John Taylor]

If it just has to go a little tighter to line up try loosening it and tightening it several times. Each time you tighten it you may be able to turn it a little further. Make sure the threads have oil first. Once the tang lines up with the barrel it can be bent to line up with the stock.

 

[Bountyhunter]

John,

The plug is so tight it is like it is siezed. Cant get it to budge. I'm thinking that the answer is going to be heat, but I am wondering how hot you can go on the back of that barrel to loosen it to where you can back it out? The barrel should be a leaded steel of pretty low carbon, and shouldnt harden I'd think if I just air cool it. It needs to come up to about 450 to loosen any anaerobic if they used something like Locktite. Will it begin to turn color at that temp?

Like I mentioned, it is a hooked snail breech, so there isnt any drum hanging anything up. It is just screwed in there really tight, there is no gap, they just didnt face it off correctly, and she locked up before the flats matched up.

 

[ol vern]

Try clamping the barrel in your vice make shure
the breach plug is clear of the vice jaws so you
are not clamping down on the breach plug.

Get your self a 16 in cresent wrench and tighten it on the breach plug. now as you try to turn the
plug out rap the end of handle of the cresent wrench
hard with a BFH (large hammer) . I have removed
more than one seized up breach plug this way. If
that don't work it's time to try heat.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Don't hesitate to use a pipe extension on that wrench handle, to give you more leverage.

 

[Zonie]

If you heat the barrels breech to around 300 degrees F, that will destroy any thread locking compound.
That temperature is not hot enough to cause any color changes to the metals surface.
Actually you should use the old wives method of determining if the iron is hot enough.

It works like this: Heat the metal until you think it's hot enough. Then wet your forefinger with some spit and touch it to the metal. If it feels hot, it's not hot enough. If you hear a sssst and the steam blows your finger away from the metal, it's hot enough. By the way, when it does this it won't feel hot or burn you.
That method was used by my mom for years even after she got an electric iron.

You may find that the plug is easier to break free if you try removing it while the metal is hot.
zonie

 

[Jim-Iowa]

I don't know anything about a Sante Fe.
But I do know that on a CVA, you could twist the barrel into a pretzel before the breech plug would come out since the drum is threaded into the breechplug, and thats a heck of a big pin to shear.

 

BH,

A torch will get her out but you don't have to eat it up red hot or anything. When you get it out, check the threads on the end of the plug and the lip where the treads end. It could be like many manufacturers that they didn't use a bottoming tap when they cut the threads in the barrel, hence its getting tight because you're getting a crush-fit. If the threads on the end of the plug look buggered or rounded at the end, that's probably it. If so you may need to go out and buy a tap and grind the end off square to cut that last little bit.

If thats not it, go get yourself a dry erase marker for color transfer to see if its bottoming on the lip at the bottom of the threads or hitting the end of the barrel and file accordingly. Heck, use that marker every time you fit the thing to check where its hitting.

Hope that helps.

Sean

 

[Bountyhunter]

Sean,

I think that is what is going on here. I think that it was machine installed to a crush. I grew up in the shop, and tried banging that wrench with a hammer and it hasnt budged one iota.

I am afraid it is going to take heat and a longer handle, and a heavier hammer. It is up against the face as it is, but not indexed with the flats. I need to get it out, then just take a thousandth or so off that face and put it back in in line. I have seen some barrels after being clamped in vices and hammered on and I dont want to go there. Hopefully, I can get this fixed so it can be drawfiled smooth and then finished with out any scars.

I have a bottoming tap. My inner child keeps telling me that I could have started from scratch on this project rather than dealing with a kit with problems for less money and less time.

B

 

[Birddog6]

You can get heat sticks (for various temps.) at most machine shop tool venders. I think WW Grainger may have them also. Or if you know a guy that works on diesel engines such as Cummins, Catapillar, works on RR Locomotive diesels, etc. he may have a digital pyrometer that you could borrow & know exactly what temp you obtain. If this is something you could use now & then, TransCat has them on sale right now that are infared & they are on sale for $ 99.95 including a case for it. Nice lil gadget for checking exhaust temps on engines, bearing temps on large diesels, etc. You just point it at the object & pull the trigger & put the laser light on the object & it gives you a temp reading. Good to have it you install allot of roller bearings that have to be heated upon installation, as you can read the temp easily as you heat it up & not overheat it & change the hardness of the bearing or race you are heating.

:thumbsup:

 

[Ian Pratt]

Hey Bill, I know you said this was from an old unbuilt kit, I'm posting this for the benefit of others who may attempt to do the same for their own gun or to help out a friend - make sure it isn't loaded before you heat it. I learned pretty quick that people bring you all kinds of suprises once they hear that you can fix guns.

 

[flashpanner]

pad the vice jaws with brass or aluminum as well as the cressent wrench. You don't want to bugger up the barrel or plug.

 

Bill,

You aren't gonna need much heat to budge that thing. A propane torch will do it with tapping on a cheater. Like Ian says, make sure nothing is in the pipe before you heat it. You never know what people will do. Also the idea of wrapping brass or some other sheet metal around it to protect it is a good idea. I believe TC always crush fits their plugs and that's why you always hear guys kvetching about how hard they are to remove.

Hope all's well up in the NE part of the state. A little cloudy here, but its just teasing up with the hope of rain.

Sean

 

[rebel727]

Make some hardwood jaws for your vice or wrap it in leather before you clamp it down. Won't be any scarring to file out. Now the plug might be another story. I've got a 36 inch pipe wrench if ya need it. :thumbsup:

 

[Bountyhunter]

Tell ya what, you bring it up and I'll buy the beer. Hold muh beer and watch this LaVelle!!!

What I'm gonna do is scoot up the road a bit about Wednesday and stop by Hepburns place. Then I'm going to put a pair of V blocks around that barrel and twist it up in his machine shop vise that will hold it. My bench vise isnt stout enough to clamp it securely. We shall then overcome that thing.

I was over on the other site we cant mention talking to some of those guys, and it is readily apparent, I just need a bigger vice, bigger wrench, bigger hammer, and perhaps heat. JH said that heat is the secret, if you apply enough, that plug will just run out.

Since it is a new barrel, never been loaded, never been fired, it will pass light with the nipple out. Yeah buddy, that's the first thing I do is see if light comes in the nipple hole. That'd be just about the most embarrassing thing in the world to let Sean and Reb find out I'd shot a barrel out and then them post it on here....naw..dont even want to go there.

Mild and light breezy here, Sean. It is a bit hazy but they are having a big bass tournament in spite of it. Must be 20 bass boats out here on Ute Lake in front of the house. It is gettin a little cool days now compared to what it was. Nov. 11 and it is only 77 degrees here at 4200 ft.

Bill

 

[rebel727]

I've got an 8 inch Wilton vise, that big pipe wrench and a fire wrench with a big ole rosebud heatin tip. Bring that sucker down heah and we'll get her off. :thumbsup:

 

[John Taylor]

The proper tools always help. A crescent wrench is a good way to round the corners.

I had a CVA that took some red heat before it let go, rusted in. I doubt there is loctite on the threads but if there is plan on about 450 degrees to get it loose. If it turns blue it is around 750. I would not worry about the amount of heat it takes unless the metal is starting to melt. Like you said, let it cool slow. It will oxidize a little if you get it red.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Thanks John,

That's just kinda sorta, exactly what I had in mind. The V blocks hold 4 flats instead of just 2, and keep that rascal from twisting out of the vise jaws. I can rig up a one time wrench such as that pretty quickly. I have V-blocks. All I have to do is get Reb to bring that big vise up here and we are set to go. It really bums me out to think that all my good tools are in storage 10 miles over on the other side of the lake. If I ever get to get my shop put back together, its stayin that way.

Thanks again.

Bill

 

[John Taylor]

Those V blocks are made out of aluminum and the action wrench is made from 4140. The wrench has had a few hammer blows but mostly on them dangerous guns with the hole at both ends of the barrel.