The Double Double

[rickystl]

Congratulations. Great and interesting addition. Thanks for posting.

Rick

 

[OldSmoky1967]

Actually the only thing that is "additional" to either a flint or percussion gun is the sliding plate that covers/uncovers the flash hole. I'd imagine that changing between flint and percussion didn't happen very often. One either had caps or they didn't.

"made for a very wealthy anxious person", you might very well be correct. Hopefully once I start acquiring books about British gun makers I'll learn more...here is hoping anyway.

Robby, yes it does throw up to the shoulder perfectly and with good barrel alignment.

3Setters brings up an interesting point about the nipples being possibly mashed if not being used as a cap gun. His comment got me to wondering:

1. Certainly the thin copper of a cap isn't enough to protect the nipple? Could it be that the ignition of the cap is enough to soften the blow of the hammer on the nipple? I would think the main charge going off would be too late?

2. When operating as a flint gun with no cap on the nipple certainly some blow back from the main charge will pass up through the nipple to the hammer. If the pan flashes from the first few sparks before the cock reaches its rest might'n that cause the main charge to go off early enough to blow back through the nipple thereby softening the hammer blow to the nipple?

3. Would leaving a spent cap on the nipple protect it? Copper is hard but not as hard as iron so maybe it would absorb some of the impact? Do you guys that make your own caps reuse the spent ones?

Interesting questions. Of course the nipples could just be swapped out, but I don't want to do that to this gun for obvious reasons. Wouldn't Jones, the gunsmith that came up this gun, and the sliding plate to block off the touch hole, wouldn't he have already thought of this?

Perhaps when I start shooting this gun the questions will be answered. It's 8 degrees this morning, I'm disinclined to go outside and shoot although I'm certainly itching to.

I think that is one of the coolest old guns I have seen, and I have a few, myself. Nice acquisition!

 

[pamtnman]

Although I responded to the initial post with the heart-eyes smiling face emoji, I forgot to say it out loud: WHAT A GUN. Wow. Super cool technically, and beautifully executed.

 

[Packrat]

Thinking about this. Firings as a Flint gun the amount of force on the nipple would, seem to me, be reduced somewhat. My concern would be powder blow back in the nipple but the hammer should mitigate that
Just thinking
Still a remarkable idea and wonderful piece

 

[cornstalk]

Thinking about this. Firings as a Flint gun the amount of force on the nipple would, seem to me, be reduced somewhat. My concern would be powder blow back in the nipple but the hammer should mitigate that
Just thinking
Still a remarkable idea and wonderful piece

That's a good point. Again, pretty sure Jones already figured it out.

 

[SOLANCO]

My firstborn is grown and away and married. What else would you take in trade?

 

[DixieTexian]

You should send those pictures to the guy who does the forgotten weapons channel on YouTube. He might even have some more information about the maker.

 

[sawyer04]

Looks beautiful but paradoxically a royal pain,,,,, to operate!
I hope I am wrong but I am thinking it was made for a very wealthy anxious person!

Thinking the same Brits. Hoping you would comment. It is the likes I have never seen before, even when I was scouring Europe's artifacts.

 

[sawyer04]

So here she is. The Double Double (for lack of a better description). A double 20 smoothbore with double ignition; flint and percussion cap.

Thanks for posting cornstalk, even the photos are a keep sake.

 

[TFoley]

It is an endless curiosity. Why wasn't that design made here? Very unique.

Not everything innovative was 'innovated' in America. Add to that the clear fact that it must have cost a small fortune to make - as previously noted, this is definitely not a run-of-the-mill hardware store gun. Since I've never seen anything like it before in my life, and I'm in my mid-70s' so far - it must be taken as read that it is an extremely rare, maybe even unique, firearm.

It took me almost three seconds to find this -

Also -

• John Jones and Co. are recorded as Gunmakers at 12 Bells Buildings, Salisbury Square, London, between 1828 and 1830. The company also had a factory in Birmingham between 1814 and 1835.

And -







An 18-Bore Flintlock Duelling Pistol by Jones & Co.
£0.00
SOLD
ID: 3124
An 18-Bore Flintlock Duelling Pistol by Jones & Co. With sighted browned octagonal barrel, with gold poincon stamped ‘LONDON’ single gold band and platinum plug, engraved steel tang incorporating rear-sight. Bevelled engraved lock fitted with sliding safety catch, French style cock, rain-proof pan. Half-stocked in walnut with chequered grip and silver wire inlay around the butt, a stand of arms on the butt and an engraved silver fore-end cap. Steel trigger guard decorated with foliage and pineapple finial, turned ramrod pipes, with brass mounted ramrod with worm.

JONES & Co
John & Co. Gunmakers, 12 Bells Buildings, Salisbury Square, 1828-30. Factory at Birmingham 1814-1835. Marked guns ‘LONDON’

Howard L. Blackmore (1986) Gunmakers Of London, 1350-1850. George Shumway Publisher. USA.

Dimensions:
Bore: 18 Bore
Barrel Length: 9 Inches (22.86 cm)
Overall Length: 15 Inches (38.10 cm)

 

[cornstalk]

Thanks TFoley for the additional Jones info. Here is where I found when he bought the shop and also purchased life insurance and then passed away.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/rppu...4-english-welsh-gunmakers-1550-1850-v1705.pdf

 

[cornstalk]

See how bad I am. Even though I knew his death was in 1835 I posted it as 1837. Easy to see how the journals we read from different trappers writing about the same event don't always jive.

 

[olskool]

the gun is weird and fantastic at the same time,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[pamtnman]

The Double Gun Journal might be interested in an article featuring this wonderfully strange rifle

 

[PathfinderNC]

Amazing gun and meticulously maintained.
I wonder if sometimes things like this were built for the challenge. If so, it was as a smashing success!

 

[cornstalk]

That stock key with the loop hole is probably for a shoulder sling whose other end was a simple loop that slips over the stock and is pulled tight at the wrist. Goes on when the gun is secured across the back and the game is dragged out

It sure looks like a sling attachment to me. But, if the sling was only attached to the key the first time you shouldered it the key would come out. I have zero knowledge of slings from this time period but seems to me that attachment point, if that's what it is, could only be used to keep the sling positioned on the stock. I have no idea what that would look like.

 

[beardedhorse]

If one used it in flintlock mode and removed the nipple and replaced it with a screw you still have to consider upsetting the threads in the snail unless the cock had a notch to stop forward rotation on the lock plate. The replacement screw could be a tad shorter than the nipple. The tumbler stopping on the bridle on the inside could also limit forward travel but put stress on the screws holding the bridle holding the tumbler against the lock plate. I've seen conversions on large bore elephant hunting rifles using a nipple soldered or brazed to a replacement frizzen and the cap set up off with a piece of steel replacing the flint in the jaw. Was close to .100 caliber or one inch. At any rate a beautifully made firearm and interesting, novel design. Doubt if Pedersoli would go to expense to replicate.
Couldn't get investment back in sales.

 

[pamtnman]

It sure looks like a sling attachment to me. But, if the sling was only attached to the key the first time you shouldered it the key would come out. I have zero knowledge of slings from this time period but seems to me that attachment point, if that's what it is, could only be used to keep the sling positioned on the stock. I have no idea what that would look like.

Why would the key come out? It is flat on the other side, which is what makes it a barrel/stock key. That flat side is pulled tight against the metal plate inletted into the stock. A tremendous force would be required to pull the key through, like from a large mechanical arrangement. The other end of the strap would have a loop through which the entire strap is run. That creates a second loop that is pulled tight against the stock wrist. A lot of these kinds / variations of musket/longrifle shoulder slings can be found at rendezvous and black powder events. People can make them for you. Gary Fatheree at The Leatherman makes them to order. A lady named Chris at the PA Society of Horners weaves some. Every gun is different so many of these straps/ slings must be adapted to that particular rifle.

 

[pamtnman]

And just to add a little bit of uncontroversial historic reference here, the British made the best sporting firearms bar none from the 1750s through the 1930s. Germans and Austrians made some incredible sporting rifles, notably highly decorated Jaegers, then later single shot stalking rifles and double rifles. German drillings and vierlings can have some incredible technology with switches and miniature connections to sights. The Italians made some beautiful looking martial arms. The French made a few highly decorated sporting arms. But overall the British London sporting gun trade was the gold standard. Especially with double rifles. This fantastic gun is an exemplar. Someone needs to do an article on it.

 

[Rudyard]

Certainly an interesting gun the observation on the Elephant rifles (Rare to be rifled usually a smooth bored gun used up close ). I adapted a ' Late English L&R' to that plan baseing my ideas on Hawkers writeing of useing that expedient .He found it lasted for a while but then tended to break. I found it needed primeing a bit and blew open. Not so good & I put it to Tube lock useing another same pattern L&R. But the tubes are fiddley and I never got beyond tests . . The late Kit Ravenshear was fascinated with' Devolving 'locks flint to cap at will (He was also intreaqued by' Roman candle' systems but that's an aside . .Generally I concluded a gun is best sticking to one system flint or percussion .But not to detract from Jones inginuety & skill . 14 year old gun makers ? Ide think at that date 14 year olds where not schooling till thier 18 but would be in the workforce particularly in the fathers shop . They grew up fast . I left school at 15 my parents did at 14 it was then normal enough not to say he would be that accomplished but he could be at work probably '
Rudyard